daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > Supertalls

Supertalls Discussions of projects under construction between 300-599m/1,000-1,999ft tall.
» Proposed Supertalls



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 6th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #1681
desertpunk
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
 
desertpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ELP ~ ABQ
Posts: 55,648
Likes (Received): 53453

http://www.4d-group.com/ProjectDetai...er%203%20.html






__________________
We are floating in space...

Highcliff liked this post
desertpunk no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 7th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #1682
Davidsam52
Registered User
 
Davidsam52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Fl.
Posts: 526
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertpunk View Post
nice renderings.....what part of the structure do they depict?
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Davidsam52 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #1683
Otie
Researcher
 
Otie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,117
Likes (Received): 2186

All appear to be located inside or around the core, but can't tell really.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Otie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #1684
600West218
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,734
Likes (Received): 1574

One thing that has always struck me about the WTC is how differently WTC 1 is from every other building.

When you see WTC 1 you realize it is essentially a bunker built for the primary purpose of surviving an attack, and as a secondary function it can also house some offices.

But at least WTC 3 and 4 don't seem like that at all. They seem completely exposed to nearby streets and they have bases that are largely steel and glass. In short, they look very vulnerable to truck bombs and the like.

Why this difference? Do the planners really think that ONLY WTC 1 could be a potential target and that the other buildings won't be?

I am just mystified by the huge design differences between the buildings and wonder if maybe they aren't based on some flawed assumptions.

What do others think/know about this?
600West218 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #1685
chris123678
Registered User
 
chris123678's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Posts: 545
Likes (Received): 143

Quote:
Originally Posted by 600West218 View Post
One thing that has always struck me about the WTC is how differently WTC 1 is from every other building.

When you see WTC 1 you realize it is essentially a bunker built for the primary purpose of surviving an attack, and as a secondary function it can also house some offices.

But at least WTC 3 and 4 don't seem like that at all. They seem completely exposed to nearby streets and they have bases that are largely steel and glass. In short, they look very vulnerable to truck bombs and the like.

Why this difference? Do the planners really think that ONLY WTC 1 could be a potential target and that the other buildings won't be?

I am just mystified by the huge design differences between the buildings and wonder if maybe they aren't based on some flawed assumptions.

What do others think/know about this?

I was thinking that aswell. But they do think Tower 1 is the only target.
That's the main building on the World Trade Center site.
During the orginal attack, the twins came under attack, not buildings 2, 3,4,5,and 6. So they figure the same here.
Only difference, is, the new site has all office towers. They obviously weren't thinking/
chris123678 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #1686
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,498

You honestly think they didn't consider the possibility of an attack on the other buildings? Have you seen their cores? 2 foot thick reinforced concrete. And their columns are coated with strong concrete. They're less protected than 1WTC, but they're definitely bomb proof.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 07:04 PM   #1687
thejacko5
SSC Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 401

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidsam52 View Post
nice renderings.....what part of the structure do they depict?
they looks like wall and roof/horizontal x-bracing nodes and then some complex moment connections which are usually found around the perimeter.
thejacko5 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 07:41 PM   #1688
yankeesfan1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,235
Likes (Received): 560

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
You honestly think they didn't consider the possibility of an attack on the other buildings? Have you seen their cores? 2 foot thick reinforced concrete. And their columns are coated with strong concrete. They're less protected than 1WTC, but they're definitely bomb proof.
+1

This is the WTC, it's been the target in two separate attacks in 93 and 01. It's not even worth discussing whether or not they took the worst case scenario into consideration during design and engineering of these buildings.
yankeesfan1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #1689
chris123678
Registered User
 
chris123678's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Posts: 545
Likes (Received): 143

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
You honestly think they didn't consider the possibility of an attack on the other buildings? Have you seen their cores? 2 foot thick reinforced concrete. And their columns are coated with strong concrete. They're less protected than 1WTC, but they're definitely bomb proof.
It seems that way. Honestly, why give tower 1 a 20 story concrete bunker with no windows, and a 60 foot blast wall, along with a 3 foot concrete core, and only give towers 2,3 and 4 a concrete core, leaving the lobbies vunerable to truck bombs? They are only covered with glass/
chris123678 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 09:42 PM   #1690
Chibears85
MEOW!
 
Chibears85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 728
Likes (Received): 669

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris123678 View Post
It seems that way. Honestly, why give tower 1 a 20 story concrete bunker with no windows, and a 60 foot blast wall, along with a 3 foot concrete core, and only give towers 2,3 and 4 a concrete core, leaving the lobbies vunerable to truck bombs? They are only covered with glass/
Maybe cause they think our security is good enough to protect the lobby and basement.. Think of how much our security has improved, im sure the lobby will be just fine
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Chibears85 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 10:58 PM   #1691
chris123678
Registered User
 
chris123678's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Posts: 545
Likes (Received): 143

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chibears85 View Post
Maybe cause they think our security is good enough to protect the lobby and basement.. Think of how much our security has improved, im sure the lobby will be just fine
That's wierd, then why not think the same about tower 1? Honestly, all the towers are going to be targets just for the mere fact of their massive height and soon to be iconic views, and while I'm sure that a terrorist attack on this site is slim in the near future, you don't protect one towers's lobby and leave the rest open.
That's like sending 5 boys out in the snow, and only giving one of them a hat, and coat.
chris123678 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #1692
IngMarco
Registered User
 
IngMarco's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Culiacán
Posts: 4,167
Likes (Received): 2634

Terrorist aim the largest target in order to leave the largest scar. 1WTC being the tallest makes it the primary target.

Is this tower leased? The last time I saw the concret core it was only a couple storeys above ground.
IngMarco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 01:14 AM   #1693
Otie
Researcher
 
Otie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,117
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris123678 View Post
It seems that way. Honestly, why give tower 1 a 20 story concrete bunker with no windows, and a 60 foot blast wall, along with a 3 foot concrete core, and only give towers 2,3 and 4 a concrete core, leaving the lobbies vunerable to truck bombs? They are only covered with glass/
It's not really a 20-story concrete bunker, Tower One's blast walls at the base only extend to the 3rd floor slab, or ~60 feet above ground, protecting only the lobby and the 2nd transfer floor, the rest of the base is ocupied by mechanical plenums, leaving this section completely unprotected.

The current WTC Campus Security Plan calls for vehicle checkpoints at every access to the site, any delivering truck heading to the WTC's docks will need to pass through the Vehicle Security Center, they're not allowed to access the streets of the site. For more information, read this 32-page NYPD pdf.

Besides NYPD's plan, all towers will get protected against any truck bomb or major thread by placing thick concrete bollards at the sidewalk's perimeter.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Otie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 02:27 AM   #1694
chris123678
Registered User
 
chris123678's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Posts: 545
Likes (Received): 143

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otie View Post
It's not really a 20-story concrete bunker, Tower One's blast walls at the base only extend to the 3rd floor slab, or ~60 feet above ground, protecting only the lobby and the 2nd transfer floor, the rest of the base is ocupied by mechanical plenums, leaving this section completely unprotected.

The current WTC Campus Security Plan calls for vehicle checkpoints at every access to the site, any delivering truck heading to the WTC's docks will need to pass through the Vehicle Security Center, they're not allowed to access the streets of the site. For more information, read this 32-page NYPD pdf.

Besides NYPD's plan, all towers will get protected against any truck bomb or major thread by placing thick concrete bollards at the sidewalk's perimeter.

Yes, that's great and everthing but why give 1 tower a bomb proof lobby and the other towers are left open.
Think about it, tower 1 has the concrete lobby and a blast wall 60 feet tall. Then has an additional amount of height that raise the office floors.
Yet the other towers are steel and glass, with a concrete core?
As I said earlier, it's kinda like putting 5 kids out in the snow and giving one of them a hat and coat/
chris123678 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 02:33 AM   #1695
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,498

The lobbies have virtually indestructible concrete columns. In the case of a bomb, the main damage would probably be the glass shattering and very little, if any, structural damage.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 02:46 AM   #1696
yankeesfan1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,235
Likes (Received): 560

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris123678 View Post
Yes, that's great and everthing but why give 1 tower a bomb proof lobby and the other towers are left open.
Think about it, tower 1 has the concrete lobby and a blast wall 60 feet tall. Then has an additional amount of height that raise the office floors.
Yet the other towers are steel and glass, with a concrete core?
As I said earlier, it's kinda like putting 5 kids out in the snow and giving one of them a hat and coat/
Read through the pdf Otie posted. No truck will be able to get within blast distance of any of the towers without going through at least one checkpoint.

Otie gave a very good answer as well, you shouldn't gloss over it so easily.

To think these towers haven't been designed for the worst case scenario's is silly and doesn't merit discussion.
yankeesfan1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 03:02 AM   #1697
600West218
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,734
Likes (Received): 1574

Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 View Post
Read through the pdf Otie posted. No truck will be able to get within blast distance of any of the towers without going through at least one checkpoint.

Otie gave a very good answer as well, you shouldn't gloss over it so easily.

To think these towers haven't been designed for the worst case scenario's is silly and doesn't merit discussion.
Not true unless they are planning on closing off Trinity Place and Church Street. Are they going to be closing those streets or making them limited access once these building are open? If not, then a truck bomber would likely be able to explode a very powerful device within 40 or 50 feet of them.

That might not bring down the building but it would likely kill people who were in the lobby in a way that it wouldn't for the fortified lobby of WTC 1.

So unless I am missing something here (like those streets which are presently open will be closed) it does indeed seem they are viewing WTC 1 as a truck bomb target but not WTC 2, 3, or 4.
600West218 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 03:03 AM   #1698
600West218
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,734
Likes (Received): 1574

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris123678 View Post
Yes, that's great and everthing but why give 1 tower a bomb proof lobby and the other towers are left open.
Think about it, tower 1 has the concrete lobby and a blast wall 60 feet tall. Then has an additional amount of height that raise the office floors.
Yet the other towers are steel and glass, with a concrete core?
As I said earlier, it's kinda like putting 5 kids out in the snow and giving one of them a hat and coat/
Exactly.

If I recall correctly they weren't originally planning that sort of base for WTC 1 either. It was NYPD which worried that trucks could get to close and insisted on that base. I am just wondering why they didn't have the same level of concern for the other buildings.
600West218 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 03:18 AM   #1699
yankeesfan1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,235
Likes (Received): 560



Again, read the NYPD pdf. Those streets will be closed, and separated from general traffic with bollards.

If the NYPD didn't think tower 2, 3 and 4 were bomb targets they wouldn't have a permitter around the whole WTC site, they would just have a perimeter around Tower 1.

The whole site is being treated as a target, that's just not debatable.
yankeesfan1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 03:25 AM   #1700
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,498

They should just pedestrianize the future Greenwich Street like they did with Times Square. No chance of bombs, and it looks more inviting.
__________________

Highcliff, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
new york, silverstein, supertall, world trade center

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu