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Old September 9th, 2015, 03:55 AM   #5101
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Beautiful tower, bubeleh.
Nein, bubeleh, It's such a meeskite ... and a shonda!!!
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Old September 11th, 2015, 06:23 PM   #5102
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It's is true that the works begin in January 2016?
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Old September 12th, 2015, 01:42 AM   #5103
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It's is true that the works begin in January 2016?
That date would certainly be wishful thinking! No timetable has yet been given and won't until the actual contracts are signed. Right now all that they have signed is a document saying they are entering negotiations.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 06:56 PM   #5104
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What I don't understand is that the foundation and core (and 4 floors of infrastructure) are already poured as per the previous plans based on F+P's architecture.

Unless BIG's plans use the same core, columns layout and foundations (which is unlikely), there will be considerable work (and expenses) to demolish the existing core (4 floors under street level) and redo the foundations.

Considering the value engineering which was done to save money on WTC#1 and WTC#3, it flies in the face of logic and good sense and I'd be curious to know who is paying the bill for that decision...
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Old September 16th, 2015, 08:06 PM   #5105
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What I don't understand is that the foundation and core (and 4 floors of infrastructure) are already poured as per the previous plans based on F+P's architecture.

Unless BIG's plans use the same core, columns layout and foundations (which is unlikely), there will be considerable work (and expenses) to demolish the existing core (4 floors under street level) and redo the foundations.

Considering the value engineering which was done to save money on WTC#1 and WTC#3, it flies in the face of logic and good sense and I'd be curious to know who is paying the bill for that decision...
There will be no demolition of any of the already existing underground structures to build this revised building. That was one of the major challenges of changing the design. Making it fit on top of the already existing foundations with a prerequisite because so much of the underground structure is not only in place but also in operation supporting the other buildings in the complex.
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Old September 16th, 2015, 08:24 PM   #5106
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It's my understanding that they are engineering the base to utilize the existing foundations and core, which is going to be a large contributor to the $4Bn price-tag.

This is a good article explaining some of the complications involved with relocating the extant ventilation machinery on site, while it's still in operation, so that they can build without disrupting the transit hub.

As for who exactly will wind up footing the bill, I'd be curious myself.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 02:06 AM   #5107
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It's my understanding that they are engineering the base to utilize the existing foundations and core, which is going to be a large contributor to the $4Bn price-tag.

This is a good article explaining some of the complications involved with relocating the extant ventilation machinery on site, while it's still in operation, so that they can build without disrupting the transit hub.

As for who exactly will wind up footing the bill, I'd be curious myself.
I had read that article previously when it 1st came out and find it very interesting. Hopefully as this project progresses there will be more in-depth articles written and published about how the actual changeover is to be done and ultimately is done. It's certainly a project that many of us in the engineering field would like to be involved in, complexity makes projects interesting and fun!

As far as the costs go I don't think there's much debate about that. All the costs associated with relocating the machinery and building around it will have to be absorbed by Silverstein since it's solely his building was no actual involvement from the PA. It was his decision to put that equipment on the 1st floor instead of building a stub of the tower to support the equipment. Actually I do wish we had built a stub because then we probably would've been seeing the original designed 2WTC instead of what we are now getting.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 06:42 PM   #5108
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There will be no demolition of any of the already existing underground structures to build this revised building. That was one of the major challenges of changing the design. Making it fit on top of the already existing foundations with a prerequisite because so much of the underground structure is not only in place but also in operation supporting the other buildings in the complex.
If the new structure has to rely on the existing foundations and core it would mean that unless they keep the columns, shear walls and other vertical load bearing elements in the exact same location (which I doubt since the perimeter of the building is not the same), they will have to resort to a transfer system above what is already constructed. This will be challenging both structurally and architecturally and does not come cheap either.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 07:03 PM   #5109
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If the new structure has to rely on the existing foundations and core it would mean that unless they keep the columns, shear walls and other vertical load bearing elements in the exact same location (which I doubt since the perimeter of the building is not the same), they will have to resort to a transfer system above what is already constructed. This will be challenging both structurally and architecturally and does not come cheap either.
You are certainly correct and some of the earlier articles that came out about this design talked about the transfer system that would have to be built. Obviously it's not as simple as building a structure that was designed to go on that foundation but it's really not that big of a deal either. It's done all the time especially when remodeling/repurposing historic buildings.

I didn't go into details like that in my original post because most readers of this forum really wouldn't care about details like that. I'm actually a mechanical/structural engineer and would love to see how they are doing the transfer system on this building. I've been involved in several other projects that had to do transfer systems and they are always very interesting to work on and design.
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Old September 17th, 2015, 07:29 PM   #5110
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I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I was at least under the impression that the transfer system had something to do with the crazy shape of the lobby interior:


Render from that Wired article
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Old September 17th, 2015, 07:33 PM   #5111
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Yes i remember reading that somewhere aswell.
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Old September 18th, 2015, 07:41 AM   #5112
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That strange lobby with its monolithic and bare concrete walls makes me think of a new style of whitewashed contemporary brutalism. Makes for a very scifi dystopic setback.
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Old September 18th, 2015, 07:42 AM   #5113
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Originally Posted by DUBAI10000 View Post
GLORIFIED BOXES STACKED ON TOP OF EACHOTHER. IF YOU WILL GIVE ME A MINUTE ILL MAKE A SCALE MODEL IN MY KITCHEN ALL IN NEED IS 6 CARDBOARD BOXES AND TAPE. THIS WAS A "BIG" MISTAKE.
Nice rhyme
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Old September 18th, 2015, 07:48 AM   #5114
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Bjarke had a big point in the video and everything about adding the greenery; it's basically one of the selling points of the tower. So I'm sure that he will advocate for it to be added. But then again, this is the WTC, and almost EVERYTHING gets cut in the WTC. But then again, the building is expected to cost 4 billion dollars, so if that's their budget I'm sure they'll have enough money to make that happen. Remember how Ingels has a campaign to make his Copenhagen power plant emit smoke rings? There's actually a good chance of that happening.





I'm just saying that I would put my trust in him to do this one thing. If we're lucky, maybe the top setback could even a public outdoor observatory like the one on the South Tower! (Okay maybe not, but one can dream... )

Oh, how wonderful. How so innovative. Smoke rings! Can BIG be anymore of a creative genius! Such a virtuoso! Such a resplendent mind with BIG ideas! A 2WTC with smoke rings! Might as well make it a Native American casino! The smoke rings can be signals to other tribes about the horizon! Yes BIG, you are a gracious genius so special for this time!
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Old September 18th, 2015, 04:36 PM   #5115
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..That's the opinion of the foremost architecture critics,more generally most of the professionals but also average people like you and me.
The problem being that a bunch of kids bully that thread....
Curious. I read where the other architects for the WTC project approved the change in the design (which is different from singing its praises) but I haven't read anything where a critic is lauding the BIG proposal. Link?
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Old September 18th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #5116
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Curious. I read where the other architects for the WTC project approved the change in the design (which is different from singing its praises) but I haven't read anything where a critic is lauding the BIG proposal. Link?
Bjarke Ingles seems to be the Christopher Nolan of the architectural community in that he'll always be regarded as a genius even if some of his work is fairly mediocre or too over-the-top (although I am warming up to his 2 WTC) and anything negative said about his work would be considered blasphemy.
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Old September 18th, 2015, 06:17 PM   #5117
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Originally Posted by MarshallKnight View Post
I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I was at least under the impression that the transfer system had something to do with the crazy shape of the lobby interior:


Render from that Wired article
That would be one way to do it - but designing and building an inclined shear wall will certainly be challenging and will likely require post tension where the inclination changes.

It will be interesting (to say the least) but then again it might fit in the $4 billion price tag...

I'd be curious to know what was the price tag for the building as per F+P design and how much the change to the BIG's proposal ended up costing.

I also wonder if the proposal based on BIG architecture proposal will be kept on time and on budget - somehow I have my doubts due to the issues with the mechanical equipment and structure, but time will tell...
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Old September 18th, 2015, 06:35 PM   #5118
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HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT PAUL GOLDBERGER MY FRIEND?...BUT MAYBE ALL WHAT YOU...READ(?)IS HUSTLER??


http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/20...-bjarke-ingels



The Foster building, which culminated in four slanted, diamond-shaped forms against the sky, would have been much better than conventional, and it had the best skyline profile of any of the new towers. The new design by BIG is flat-topped, and from some directions it may look more like a conventional glass skyscraper than some people would expect, especially given BIG’s propensity for unusually-shaped buildings, like the pyramidal apartment house going up at the far west end of 57th Street. But Bjarke Ingels would no more design a truly conventional tower than he would do a Georgian house, and when you get beyond the pretentious hype of the video presentation (in which the architect says things like “where horizontal meets vertical, diversity becomes unity”), it turns out to be one of the more provocative and notable towers of the last generation, largely because Ingels has managed to take the space requirements of Fox and News Corp., and make real architecture out of them.

That is no small thing. Most skyscrapers these days are shapes first, and usable office or residential space second. Ingels started out not with some notion of an iconic shape that would stick in our minds, but by translating the company’s space needs into a series of boxes of different floor sizes. The boxes get smaller as the building rises, but also wider, and Ingels stacked them so that on the north side each box projects out a little farther than the one below, while on the east side the boxes step back in the manner of a classic 1920s office building, with large roof terraces on each setback. The in-and-out stuff is restricted to these two sides. The south and west sides, which face the National September 11 Memorial and Museum, rise straight up, addressing the memorial with more dignity and quiet, and helping to enclose the space around it.

The building overall is a lively composition, but quieter than you would expect from Ingels (who, with English architect Thomas Heatherwick, is designing Google’s new headquarters) and more responsive to what is around it. There are some handsome details, like the way the mullions on the glass are slanted to create a horizontal effect on the north and east and a vertical effect on the south and west. But the main achievement is in the clever way all these boxes are stacked. It’s a bit like a gargantuan version of the New Museum on the Bowery, but with more finesse. It may even be elegant. And what a radical idea: to produce an architecturally ambitious skyscraper whose shape actually expresses the needs of the building’s tenant.

WATCH: The Untold Design Story of the Final WTC Building


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I read that article and I wouldn't say that it's a "ringing" endorsement of BIG's design over F+P's design...

To say "It may even be elegant" is a far cry from saying that switching design was an improvement over the proposal which "had the best skyline profile of any of the new towers".
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Old September 18th, 2015, 07:26 PM   #5119
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...Forget Foster's design!..who talk about comparing the two designs?
Golberger is a gentleman.
" And what a radical idea: to produce an architecturally ambitious skyscraper whose shape actually expresses the needs of the building’s tenant."("FORM FOLLOWS FONCTION"!!!)
KUDOS Bjark!!
Since one design is replacing the other, I guess it's only natural to compare them. And one of your earlier post which started that discussion was about your and the alleged general preference of architects and critics for BIG proposal over F+P proposal - which unless I am mistaken is a comparison.

You seem to prefer BIG's design and I respect your opinion. You seem pretty enthusiastic about it and it's your right and it's great. But there's a difference with having an opinion and trying to impose it unto others by pretending that it's an universal truth that BIG's design is sooooooooo much better than F+P previous proposal, and that those who disagree with that assertion are "bullies" or reading only Hustler.

Also the "form follows function" argument is not exactly new or provocative (along with "more is less", blah blah blah...). To me it would be only a backhanded compliment if that cliche is the best thing that could be said about BIG's design... I honestly thought there were traces of irony and sarcasm in the way it was formulated in that article - but maybe I'm just being a cynic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to shoot down BIG's design: I just think that both proposals are audacious and spectacular in their own way.

Last edited by NYStruct; September 18th, 2015 at 07:34 PM.
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Old September 18th, 2015, 08:27 PM   #5120
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take your pills man
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