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Old January 27th, 2016, 06:55 AM   #5601
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Rising View Post
a)We're all first year and second year architecture students. The program focuses more on the artistic side rather than the engineering side. They do this to get us thinking more creatively and designing "sculpture that you can live in". As a student I like to find a balance between the functional and artistic side. My whole thing is taking something that looks really dynamic and making it very simple without compromising the dynamism.
Good luck with it. No doubt the artistic side is more fun and very critical, but don't get too caught up in the idealism that you gloss over functionality. More than half of my class burned out because they couldn't "compromise."

And as you're seeing here, that balance is a very tough act to sustain!

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b)But all of my class mates feel that Foster designs are very "safe" and not risky.
Rather ironic in this case, I say, given BIG's concept for the sight is hardly bold.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:41 PM   #5602
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There's a difference between beauty or quality, and taste. I recognize One57 for example, is a nice tower, but I just don't like it. While BIG's 2WTC was not utter sh*t, it was not nice at all. Beauty can be found through symmetry, harmony or balance in the design, for example, and BIG's design has very low or non existent attributes like those.
Beauty can be found through literally any means, as is the definition of beauty. For you, maybe, it is found through such vague concepts as 'balance' or 'harmony', but for other people it can be found through imbalance and disorder.

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I think architecture is 50% Art and 50% Geometry. The problem with BIG's design, and many other modern skyscrapers, is that it's 99% Geometry with 1% Art, if that. In this case you don't need an "architect" since a structural engineer is enough if all you ever design is geometric shapes.
No it's 100% art. Pragmatic art, perhaps, but still art. Geometry can be used by artists, it is not a distinct method of design. The original skyscrapers were cereal boxes. The original WTC towers were as boxy as they come. Some people prefer that style. Not every skyscraper has to be a complex design or curves and spires.

Furthermore, and this goes for both of you: 2WTC is not the focal point of the complex. Foster's design is a great design for a skyscraper, but not for 2WTC. It stood out too much from the rest, didn't share any common design features. The new design, for better or worse, is certainly more 'harmonious' with it's brothers and sisters. And because it is less distinctive, it fits better with the neighboring structures.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 05:11 PM   #5603
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In the postcard angle from the Hudson River, 2WTC will be visually in the centre of the complex and would be separated from the rest by the lowrise PATH hub and PAC, so I think the site is perfect for something as iconic as the Foster design

Last edited by xing lin; January 27th, 2016 at 05:22 PM.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 05:40 PM   #5604
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Furthermore, and this goes for both of you: 2WTC is not the focal point of the complex. Foster's design is a great design for a skyscraper, but not for 2WTC. It stood out too much from the rest, didn't share any common design features. The new design, for better or worse, is certainly more 'harmonious' with it's brothers and sisters. And because it is less distinctive, it fits better with the neighboring structures.
I'll politely challenge this assertion. The materials, orientation and relative scale meant everyone knew the design was part of a collective development, particularly as people came to recognize why there was the angular roof. Moreover, it was designed when the full complex had more artistry about it, with additional detailing and exterior play on #3 and a more purely artistic spire on #1. If anything it reinforced the notion that there was more to the site than just #1.

BIG, by comparison, presented something that by scale came across as competing with #1 as THE tower of the site (as opposed to matching more closely #3 and 4). Whereas Foster's roof gave open deference to the memorial, BIG's concept loomed large over it, as if ignoring that feature and focusing on its own height and monumentality. Perhaps by offering the more plain facade it did attempt to fade into the background, but the staggering blocks that leaned away from the other lesser structures countered that effect, IMO. If we're shooting for blunt harmony than we should've simply built near copies of 3 or 4, no?

So at least in my opinion I think it's the opposite. BIG's concept looks far more out of place for that location and context, and would be the better isolated tower elsewhere.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 07:11 PM   #5605
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Furthermore, and this goes for both of you: 2WTC is not the focal point of the complex. Foster's design is a great design for a skyscraper, but not for 2WTC. It stood out too much from the rest, didn't share any common design features. The new design, for better or worse, is certainly more 'harmonious' with it's brothers and sisters. And because it is less distinctive, it fits better with the neighboring structures.
I disagree as well. With its setback and cantilevers, BIG's design is in rupture with WTC#3 and 4 (which go straight vertical) and even WTC#1. As such BIG's design would stand out much more than F+P design. It is much more distinctive than the other buildings on site and would "steal the show" (which is no doubt what a young, audacious and brash architect like Ingels had in mind).

Personally I think therein lies the difference of philosophy between the designs: Bjarke is relatively young and is still looking to leave its mark with "mind-blowing" designs with thrilling shapes while Foster has nothing left to prove and can go for "wiser" designs. But IMO the WTC site doesn't need sensationalism: it needs majestic harmony

In addition, F+P roof opened up on the memorial plaza while many critics have pointed that BIG's design seems to "turn its back" to the plaza and WTC#1 because of the orientation of the gardens and cantilevers. Ingels himself describes his design as a "two faced" Janus-kind skyscraper - and as far as I am concerned I would rather have an honest skyscraper on that site (just my opinion anyway).
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Old January 28th, 2016, 01:48 AM   #5606
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Thank god Bjarke Ingels design is gone !!!!!!!!
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Old January 28th, 2016, 01:50 AM   #5607
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Thank god Bjarke Ingels design is gone !!!! One more time !
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Old January 28th, 2016, 03:09 AM   #5608
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There is absolutely no confirmation of that.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 12:21 PM   #5609
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Architecture is art. There's no objectively better design. Some people prefer the new one.
Bullshit. Objectively speaking, there are better designs and it is shown in quality and intricacy. In other words, a contemporary abstract painting of different colored squares compared to the Sistine Chapel has absolutely no merit or standing. BIGs design fits this principle exactly. Beauty is subjective. But objectively speaking, quality is certainly well distinguishable. I would argue that Art Deco is the best architecture. Some might say Beau-Arts or Baroque. Some might even say postmodern. All have their merits. But there is a clear distinction of beauty between these and the bland and ugly faceless glass facades or brutalist monstrosities.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 01:42 PM   #5610
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So I told my architecture class that BIG's design may not be built and that Foster's may stay. They weren't happy lol. They felt BIG's design was more dynamic and fit the future more. They felt Foster's was very bland and too meh. Also my class loves BIG's work and feels Foster's designs aren't as interesting. Not saying Foster is bad just that we like BIG more.
That would be the best news of the week.


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I disagree as well. With its setback and cantilevers, BIG's design is in rupture with WTC#3 and 4 (which go straight vertical) and even WTC#1. As such BIG's design would stand out much more than F+P design. It is much more distinctive than the other buildings on site and would "steal the show" (which is no doubt what a young, audacious and brash architect like Ingels had in mind).

Personally I think therein lies the difference of philosophy between the designs: Bjarke is relatively young and is still looking to leave its mark with "mind-blowing" designs with thrilling shapes while Foster has nothing left to prove and can go for "wiser" designs. But IMO the WTC site doesn't need sensationalism: it needs majestic harmony

In addition, F+P roof opened up on the memorial plaza while many critics have pointed that BIG's design seems to "turn its back" to the plaza and WTC#1 because of the orientation of the gardens and cantilevers. Ingels himself describes his design as a "two faced" Janus-kind skyscraper - and as far as I am concerned I would rather have an honest skyscraper on that site (just my opinion anyway).
I couldn't agree more.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 05:04 PM   #5611
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Bullshit. Objectively speaking, there are better designs and it is shown in quality and intricacy. In other words, a contemporary abstract painting of different colored squares compared to the Sistine Chapel has absolutely no merit or standing. BIGs design fits this principle exactly. Beauty is subjective. But objectively speaking, quality is certainly well distinguishable. I would argue that Art Deco is the best architecture. Some might say Beau-Arts or Baroque. Some might even say postmodern. All have their merits. But there is a clear distinction of beauty between these and the bland and ugly faceless glass facades or brutalist monstrosities.
Well, I'll politely counter this, as well.

True enough your comparison of extremely different paintings illustrates vastly opposing scales of artistry, but those are also completely different charges and styles. The illustrative nature of the Sistine Chapel, no matter how intricate and beautiful, may be wholly out of place within a showroom setting that desires a bold, simple image of little more than "colored squares." But more importantly, architecture has a functional side that belies the artistic nature. As a result there are plenty of buildings that fall far short of Sistine Chapel intricacy of detail but are superior structures because of their ability to satisfy their function. And, yes, this includes making do on a budget and within a construction schedule.

So while I'll be among the first to chide BIG's proposal as having less flair and lacking types of artistry, if it indeed does a better job serving the functions required of the owner/builder then objectively speaking it may well be the better piece of architecture, at least to some. IMO his concept is worse for its impact on the public realm, but how it works inside and what it means to the developer's bottom line might completely oppose my preference, and that does matter.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 07:49 PM   #5612
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I disagree as well. With its setback and cantilevers, BIG's design is in rupture with WTC#3 and 4 (which go straight vertical) and even WTC#1. As such BIG's design would stand out much more than F+P design. It is much more distinctive than the other buildings on site and would "steal the show" (which is no doubt what a young, audacious and brash architect like Ingels had in mind).

Personally I think therein lies the difference of philosophy between the designs: Bjarke is relatively young and is still looking to leave its mark with "mind-blowing" designs with thrilling shapes while Foster has nothing left to prove and can go for "wiser" designs. But IMO the WTC site doesn't need sensationalism: it needs majestic harmony

In addition, F+P roof opened up on the memorial plaza while many critics have pointed that BIG's design seems to "turn its back" to the plaza and WTC#1 because of the orientation of the gardens and cantilevers. Ingels himself describes his design as a "two faced" Janus-kind skyscraper - and as far as I am concerned I would rather have an honest skyscraper on that site (just my opinion anyway).
This is really on point.
Bjarke's tower was a real "form follows function". He just listened what Fox wanted and needed, and with that in mind, made up a tower that accomplished its objectives on the inside, while being a bold design that really deserved attention (not saying by any means its is either bland nor beautiful) on the outside. That is, as far as i know, much of archictect's job, and he did really good.
But he seemed to forget the enviroment. The tower JUST DID NOT FIT in the complex, and overshadowed the real stars of the WTC, which are T1 and the Memorial, and totally ignored towers 3 and 4.
That's where Foster did an outstanding job. The slanted roof towards the plaza, the similar size with 1WTC and view from north and west -recalling the old twins- , and the integration on the down spiral blow away BIG's one. And acomplished this with a really sober, elegant and beautiful design.
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Old January 31st, 2016, 01:44 AM   #5613
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The only reason Forster design was dropped ,was due to fox request for more office space ,and more space to equipped their satellites ,and telecommunications equipment ,and know that Fox is no longer a possible tenant I doubt they're going to go back to Ingles design .
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Old January 31st, 2016, 03:00 AM   #5614
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At last check....the BIG design is still being shown on Silverstein's WTC.com website.
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Old January 31st, 2016, 10:34 AM   #5615
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That's because Silverstein is trying to lure other media outlets for possible tenants so for now the Ingles design is still a proposal .
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Old January 31st, 2016, 09:35 PM   #5616
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But wouldn't you say that Foster design (with the diamond facing toward the Memorial and WTC#1) is more successful in achieving this than BIG's design (which as noted by some critics and Douglas Durst seemed to turn its back to the Memorial and WTC#1)? And wouldn't you qualify the setbacks and cantilevers on BIG's design as "eccentricities" which take the spotlight away from the memorial plaza while Foster's design has more of a sober elegance to it?

From an architectural standpoint I prefer Foster's design for these reasons even though I don't have a major beef with BIG's design: I think it's audacious but just not well-suited for that site. From the structural, financial and construction standpoints however, it was always an heresy to try to fit BIG's new design on the foundations that were built for Foster's design. This was a desperate measure in an attempt to sign an anchor tenant (Fox News) but now that this deal fell through, there should be no reason to implement BIG's design.
I like Fosterīs design as much as BIGīs, but It seems to me simpler and quieter.

I do agree with you when you say the cantilered shape takes spotlight away from part of the Memorial like rushing over it.

But the diamond shape that finishes the tower is a bit ordinary, Its like I have seen it thousand of times.

That gesture has been used before in other buildings like this in Chicago . It is neither original nor distinctive as many of you detractors say

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Old February 1st, 2016, 03:26 AM   #5617
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Recap? So is "BIGLES" design what's gonna get built? Or is it still up in the air what they're gonna do? Anything official?
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Old February 1st, 2016, 03:29 AM   #5618
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But the diamond shape that finishes the tower is a bit ordinary, Its like I have seen it thousand of times.

That gesture has been used before in other buildings like this in Chicago . It is neither original nor distinctive as many of you detractors say
I don't think anyone is holding up that element as a crowning achievement in architecture. The vast majority of skyscrapers will share design elements, as there is only so much variation to repeating horizontal floors upward. So while a particular design might not feature something wholly original or incredibly dynamic, that doesn't mean it can't be graceful or attractive. Many of us simply feel that is one element that, as and why it was applied, helps give that concept a better fit for the site contextually, and that it offers a nicer story for that design than BIG's.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 03:30 AM   #5619
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Recap? So is "BIGLES" design what's gonna get built? Or is it still up in the air what they're gonna do? Anything official?
Unknown at this time. All we know is that the main reason for why BIG's redesign was offered (Fox) has now been taken off the table, and that preliminary works on the site were configured to accommodate the Foster design.

PS: Love the avatar!
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Old February 1st, 2016, 07:50 PM   #5620
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It only makes sense for Silverstein to keep both options and shop them around to as wide variety of potential tentants as possible. Hopefully the Foster design will emerge 'victorious' in the end though.
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