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Old January 14th, 2009, 07:03 AM   #81
the spliff fairy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerioAndrade View Post

Anyway, I do agree that Shangai has a beautiful and impressive skyline, but unlike Hong Kong, NY and Sao Paulo, most of their investment in highrises are concentrated in very few regions, while in those other cities you can find highrises almost everywhere.
mate, have you seen the pics? Also check out Shanghai on Google Earth, the highrises stretch all over the place, right to the very outskirts,
which are almost exclusively new and highrise.

Basically the city grows by nearly a million a year, 2500 people a day that need to be housed. In effect Shanghai builds more highrise space
than all the office space in NYC, every year
- its a nightmare. The city is now sinking under the weight of the buildings.

This is a fraction of Shanghai - bear in mind the building in the top right is the tallest completed roof in the world,
and the shorter one in front of it is taller than the Empire State Building:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Check out the highrises in the distance, the city centre looking out to the city boundaries.
(Note the highrises are alot wider and bigger than SPs, for scale the pyramidal roof at centre is 934ft high):



image hosted on flickr


vice versa

image hosted on flickr

Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 14th, 2009 at 08:03 AM.
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Old January 14th, 2009, 07:36 AM   #82
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click here and check out this development of about 50 highrise blocks, then zoom out and note how many more similar developments around there are, and also how far from the centre it is. Note: You'd only need 20 of these style of developments to have built 1000 highrises:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...=17&iwloc=addr

similarly on the new Pudong side, this 'small' development has over 100 highrises, you'd only need 10 of these.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...=16&iwloc=addr



.

Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 14th, 2009 at 03:11 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2009, 08:37 AM   #83
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Another source that references Emporis.

New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/18/bu...er=MARKETWATCH

"The city says it now has more than 4,000 skyscrapers - buildings 18 stories or higher - far more than New York, according to Emporis, a global real estate research group based in Germany."

^I think I get it now. These references to Emporis are for NYC data. The data for Shanghai must be from the Shanghai City council.

I think Emporis, relying on diagrams submitted by internet enthusiasts, is a good authority for buildings in NYC. However I don't think it is a good one for Shanghai, not just that Shanghaiites aren't too familiar with Emporis, based in Germany, but the fact Shanghai builds more highrise space every year than all of NYC office space combined. It is just too changeable.
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Old January 14th, 2009, 04:56 PM   #84
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Yes, I agree in this point. Emporis is a great source about NYīs data but definetely not about Shangaiīs data. Thatīs why Iīm going to write them questioning those numbers.

Interesting to notice is that, in the Emporis page about Shangai, they say that the City Council reported that there are 6000 buldings in the city, but they seem to avoid registering these numbers because they couldnīt find any kind of statistics from a private building company or profesional to confirmed them. So, I believe that the number correspond, actually, to all building including lowrises.

With no safe resourses, Itīs actually impossible for me to state either one or another. Iīm just pointing out what I think, from the data iīve got.

But I have to say that, taking the first picture as a reference, that area would correspond only to downtown Sao Paulo, which is just one of the regions of Sao Paulo where there are many buildings. Berrini, Vila Olimpia, Tatuape, Barra Funda, Pinheiros, Vila Mariana, Belem, Vila Prudente, Freguesia do Ó etc. are just some of other paulistan regions where there are lots and lots of buildings, all of them rather far from downtown. Shangai surely would be among the top 10 in number of highrises, but wouldnīt surpass Hong Kong or Sao Paulo.

Notice, though, that Shangai has a lot of tall building, while Sao Paulo donīt.
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Old January 14th, 2009, 08:22 PM   #85
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In terms of highrises I think Shanghai is on a par with HK (considering also its more than 3x bigger) but behind SP (lets say 7000 highrises versus 30,000). In terms of taller buildings, depending on the criteria -lets say buildings over 400ft, Shanghai comes out tops.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 12:32 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
Another source that references Emporis.

New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/18/bu...er=MARKETWATCH

"The city says it now has more than 4,000 skyscrapers - buildings 18 stories or higher - far more than New York, according to Emporis, a global real estate research group based in Germany."

^I think I get it now. These references to Emporis are for NYC data. The data for Shanghai must be from the Shanghai City council.

I think Emporis, relying on diagrams submitted by internet enthusiasts, is a good authority for buildings in NYC. However I don't think it is a good one for Shanghai, not just that Shanghaiites aren't too familiar with Emporis, based in Germany, but the fact Shanghai builds more highrise space every year than all of NYC office space combined. It is just too changeable.
those articles have to be inacurate its not 2005 its 2009. We need updated info for that. also in alot of the pics of shanghai not only proves that there is definite number cause u may think ny does not have alot but the space between each building in ny compared to shangai is a big difference. In ny why you have eachhighrise /skyscraper right next to each other. In manhattan you have 72,000 people per square mile and you are saying theres not alot of highrises. where are all these people going to stay. The space in between each building in shanghai is very very wide. and the have there buildings out in a long area og mostly land when nyc has small compact space. examples of proximity



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image hosted on flickr

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Old January 15th, 2009, 05:09 AM   #87
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yep update-wise I would hazard Shanghai has skyrocketed, with hundreds more highrises than in 2005, and widening the gap - unless of course NYC has doubled its highrises in the last 4 years, whilst Shanghai has built nothing for its extra 3 million inhabitants.

I dont get why we're talking population density, as highrises don't actually correlate highrise densities with population densities. For example the densest part of Manhattan being Chinatown, that counts up to 121,000 per sq mile, and which isn't very highrise compared to the rest of the island. Similarly, note how dense the north of Manhattan is, even without the highrises:



The same with Shanghai, the population stats for central Shanghai from 1998 - once again before the highrises:

By district, per sq. mile:

Huangpu 142,343

Nanshi 147,007

Luwan 118,328

Jingan 126,905

Hongkou 88,297

Zhabei 60,806

(Total Land area 31.2 sq miles)

If anything, some of these densities have gone down as many dense lowrise neighbourhoods are replaced by tracts of office blocks and shops^, whilst the new outskirts are chock block with tracts of highrise estates of over 100 towers in one development.

Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 21st, 2009 at 05:25 AM.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 05:34 AM   #88
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However I think your argument is that in NYC the highrises are closer together? And that there are more of them but they're hidden due to proximity? - Am I right?

If there be the case that thousands of NYC highrises are missing off Emporis data (even more so than Shanghai's paltry 500+ tally), and that the Shanghai Urban Planning Council is blatantly fabricating year on year, to every news source and data request, on 7000+ nonexistent buildings, then it would be the case that NYC has more highrises.

Thing is neither of us can prove either argument.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 05:36 AM   #89
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New York wins that award
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Old January 15th, 2009, 03:28 PM   #90
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btw, building density of Shanghai. This is taken from outside the centre looking in, from the top of the Lupu Bridge.
Most of the highrise apartment blocks in the foreground won't appear as highrise from the air (see following pic):

image hosted on flickr


the above picture is mostly covered by the red area below, with yellow peeping above the horizon



Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 15th, 2009 at 04:40 PM.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 10:03 PM   #91
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No cities can even match Shanghai or Hong Kong, not even now and 100% sure not in a few years. I mean what the hell, China has more than half a billion people still rural (600million), not USA or Mexican or Japanese city can even catch them up, with the rate they build up, every info you bring is already outdated
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Old January 16th, 2009, 01:00 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiAyanami View Post
No cities can even match Shanghai or Hong Kong, not even now and 100% sure not in a few years. I mean what the hell, China has more than half a billion people still rural (600million), not USA or Mexican or Japanese city can even catch them up, with the rate they build up, every info you bring is already outdated
hmm doesnt that mean that they cant catch up to us. Yes hey are building alot but most of them look the same, barely have an architecture, and the fact that huge amounts of that population is in poverty makes you would think that they have along way to go. All the bulding in ny is high quality and standard of living. Most of are buildings are different in any way and since the standards and qualiy are high rules and regulations differ and everything is more expensive in America especially NY. How much do you think that HK and Shang to in affect neighbor hood wise.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 01:31 AM   #93
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I thought quantity was the subject of this thread, not quality, because under that respect, I have a few dozen European cities to put on top...
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Old January 16th, 2009, 01:34 AM   #94
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The topic is about the number of highrises, not about how good they look...

And chinese cities will dominate the world in number of buildings over 12 floors.

Probably now, Hong Kong, Shanghai and Chongqing are in top 6. (the others are New York, Tokyo and Sao Paulo)
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Old January 17th, 2009, 12:32 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiAyanami View Post
I thought quantity was the subject of this thread, not quality, because under that respect, I have a few dozen European cities to put on top...
i know that but it doesnt take much effort to build something thats crappy, no offense, but when u have quality its more effort and money which means alot cant be built and NY has a whole lot of high quality high rises so your not really beating us cause we can have a whole bunch of effortless buildings and if we did that we would have a lot more buildings than anybody in the world but thats not going to happen.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 04:25 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityPolice View Post
i know that but it doesnt take much effort to build something thats crappy, no offense, but when u have quality its more effort and money which means alot cant be built and NY has a whole lot of high quality high rises so your not really beating us cause we can have a whole bunch of effortless buildings and if we did that we would have a lot more buildings than anybody in the world but thats not going to happen.



100% agreed!!


i live in sao paulo and I'd love to see more beatiful buldings
lol no way to compare NY or Hong Kong with Sao Paulo....maybe we have more building but what does it mean if many of them are old and horrible? nothin...
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Old January 17th, 2009, 07:13 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gui_x_ View Post
100% agreed!!


i live in sao paulo and I'd love to see more beatiful buldings
lol no way to compare NY or Hong Kong with Sao Paulo....maybe we have more building but what does it mean if many of them are old and horrible? nothin...
thank you! someone understandsexample


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Old January 17th, 2009, 05:48 PM   #98
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Well I have to say Chinese designs have far stricter criteria - being all built in earthquake zones as well as yearly typhoons and floods. I agree though many of the
highrises are bland and cookie-cutter, but that doesn't mean they don't work (eg well connected via public transport, low crime, good maintenance, communal space and
communities). BY Chinese law x amount of people have to live to x amount of green space in x vicinity - hence why many barely 10 year old districts have been ruthlessly
bulldozed and parks planted in.

THESE ARE NOT LOW QUALITY LOW COST BUILDINGS



image hosted on flickr




Neither is it to say that NY doesn't have them in vast tracts, or that Shanghai is all cheap and shoddy, which it isn't.
Its definitely cheaper to build in China, but that doesn't mean it scrimped, its just that materials and labour costs a fraction
of what it could elsewhere. For example the complex CCTV building that cost $800 million would equate to multi-billions in the West.

The quality of new office buildings is far more futuristic too:









image hosted on flickr











image hosted on flickr


[img]http://i36.************/2mrgswi.jpg[/img]

New designs

















[img]http://*************************/china/jpgs/chengdu_museum_sha031207_1.jpg[/img]















image hosted on flickr






[img]http://*************************/hong%20kong/jpgs/shenzhen_museum_contemporary_art_11.jpg[/img]














Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 17th, 2009 at 07:22 PM.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 06:14 PM   #99
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This is the kind of highrises the govt is trying to ban - built in the 1990s to substandard facilities for its residents - for example lack of aircon means people have to staple their own units outside, giving this lovely example. Also note the washing hung out to dry too:



Chongqing's riverfront ten years ago



The govt now demands x amount of green space for x amount of people in x vicinity. Now they're clearing barely 10 year old cityscape to create these parks, pretty ruthlessly too. Almost all the new residential developments consist of tower complexes islanded in open parkland.















Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 17th, 2009 at 06:57 PM.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 06:16 PM   #100
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Basically new Chinese development is now built by strict environmental laws, and based on a high density Hong Kong New Towns model. Shanghai is experimenting with its satellite eco-cities of 1 million, but all over China theyre getting the makeover of mixed development+parkland+highstreet. The places that have most been improved by this are the samller cities that aren't overrun by millions of newcomers needing to be housed instantly.


Wuxi, Shanghai metro

the city centre still needs its makeover, on first glance your typically drab Chinese satellite city:


but the new suburbs are getting it right, note the density is still very high



Note also these are not exclusive middle class suburbs


















Qingdao









high, middle and low income in the same developments:



Ningbo, Shanghai metro












sub-centre development







Suzhou, Shanghai metro - new buildings in old style is very much back in









Changsha

csonline.com.cn










Xian, new builds






Chongqing, new city centre development







new satellite development







'urban fabric' projects, city centre




Note the 1990s apartments behind:


www.paultownend.com







hongya cave 2nd phase with Guotai art center

original plan (note the Courbousien layout):



reconceived plan, with urban fabric inserted:





Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 17th, 2009 at 07:29 PM.
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