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Old July 18th, 2009, 10:41 PM   #241
Coccodrillo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Exactly, there is no room for an significant expansion of rail freight. You would need a secondary network in many places, just like the High Speed Rail.

To give you an idea of the cost; the 150km Betuwe railroad (freight only) cost 5 billion euros for only 150km through flat and mostly open and non-populated terrain.
Not all railways are full of passenger trains, like these ones in France (the 31 TGV in orange on the Tours-Poitiers-Bordeaux will be diverted on the HSL in a few years leaving the existing line nearly empty of passenger trains).

The Betuweroute costed really much at 30 millions/km (maybe for the tunnels?) but I think it was a good decision to build it.

The Betuwe line and HSLs are for railways as motorways are for roads.
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Old July 19th, 2009, 01:44 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
but I think it was a good decision to build it.
Based on what? Imagine what you COULD have done with that huge amount of money! Currently there are very few freight trains making use of it. And if you think this thing kept trucks out of the road, I can get you out of that dream. There are quite some freight trains running between Rotterdam and germany (and further) but mostly they still use existing routes...

No, the betuweroute is seriously one of the biggest waists of money in Dutch history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
The Betuwe line and HSLs are for railways as motorways are for roads.
With one big difference: motorways ARE being used...
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Old July 19th, 2009, 02:23 PM   #243
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With one big difference: motorways ARE being used...
The lines on the Basel-Olten-Bern-Brig-Simplon corridor are very used, including the new Olten-Bern near-HSL and the Lötschberg Base Tunnel (LBT). For the Olten-Bern line 250 trains/day from the opening is a good result. And both lines use the ETCS signalling system.

And about the costs of the Betuwelijn: The Groene Hart (Green Heart) of the Randstad is a more or less rural area amidst Holland's largest cities; the Betuwe is a less densely populated green region along the large Dutch rivers. Both feature classic Dutch polder landscape. The opposition to the original plans forced the construction of additional tunnels, driving the budget up further.

Another problem I see for the Betuwe line are:
- ETCS signalling, not installed of most trains (in Switzerland mounted the ETCS equipment on the trains before the opening of the new lines, so they didn't had problems in the LBT).
- Even if dedicated mainly tot rains going from Rotterdam to Germany it uses 25 kV and partly 1500 V electrifications systems, while Germany use 15 kV. If the Betuwelijn had been electrified entirely in 15 kV and maybe German also signalling system it would have been used a lot from the beginning.
Beacause of these problems trains still use the old lines, but these problems are not impossible to solve, by adding ETCS to multisystem locomotives. Another solution (in my opinion) is converting the sections around Barendrecht and between zevenaar and Ememrich to 25 kV so as to use simpler locomotives (15/25 kV instead of three-system engines with 1500 V DC and 15/25 V AC).

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ux/benelux.gif

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Originally Posted by Jeroen669 View Post
No, the Betuweroute is seriously one of the biggest waists of money in Dutch history.
Also the Lötschberg Base Tunnel was criticised as being too expensive and useless, but after the opening passenger traffic on this corridor increased by 30% and politicians are now wanting the second tube (it's partly single track currently).

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Based on what? Imagine what you COULD have done with that huge amount of money!
In general, I think that the problems in railway transport are not caused by lack of infrastrutures but in lack of organisation. However, new construction are not always a waste of money.
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Old July 19th, 2009, 02:28 PM   #244
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The problem with Betuwe line is that Germany doesn't have that many problems on the roads like we have, so they don't want to waste billions on a problem that doesn't exist. Not a single truck corridor is congested from the Dutch-German border until you reach the Ruhr metropolis.

Personally, I see the Betuwe route more of a competitor to shipping than to road transport, especially for the type of goods that are too large for trucks, but to small to run a ship or barge for, mostly containers.

You do see a lot of containers shipped on trucks around the Rotterdam area, but once you get further away, the amount of containers on trucks is pretty low compared to regular trucks.
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Old July 19th, 2009, 02:37 PM   #245
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The problem with Betuwe line is that Germany doesn't have that many problems on the roads like we have, so they don't want to waste billions on a problem that doesn't exist.
If the motorways between Rotterdam and Germany are congested, then it may be a good idea to try shuttle trains to transport trucks between the ports and Germany.

Another idea may be a network of fast and frequent trains carrying only trailers (without tractors) between big generators of traffic (something like Rotterdam-Rhein Ruhr).
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Old July 20th, 2009, 04:49 PM   #246
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Rotterdam - Rhein Ruhr is only about 300 kms. Much too short for a shuttle train service. (on- and offloading will take too long, and is probably too expensive)

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Old July 21st, 2009, 12:22 AM   #247
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The cheapest solution is not always the best.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 03:41 PM   #248
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Another "monster truck" of the Dutch postal company.
image hosted on flickr
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Old July 21st, 2009, 04:14 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The cheapest solution is not always the best.
For companies that want to make some profit, it is. If such shuttle service really would be profitable, don't you think some company would already provide it?

Last edited by Jeroen669; July 21st, 2009 at 04:19 PM.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 08:11 PM   #250
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There is a big business of...water. Italian water is sold in France, French water is sold in Italy. I have ever seen a bottle filled in Soth Africa in a restaurant in Danemark. Obviously if someone do this is because it is profitable. But this doesn't mean it is a good thing for environment. All these transport are a disaster in a long term.

The target should be a reduction of transport, and the transfer of the remaining traffic on railways as more as possible. Even if this is more expensive.

The economic crisis caused a diminution of 20 to 25% in the number of goods transported throught the Alps. A bad thing or the economy, a wonderful news for the environment...
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Old July 21st, 2009, 08:12 PM   #251
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The economic crisis caused a diminution of 20 to 25% in the number of goods transported throught the Alps. A bad thing or the economy, a wonderful news for the environment...
Temporary only.

And I bet it makes less than 2% difference to air quality...
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Old July 21st, 2009, 08:28 PM   #252
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The ocean is made by drops...
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Old July 21st, 2009, 10:25 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
There is a big business of...water. Italian water is sold in France, French water is sold in Italy. I have ever seen a bottle filled in Soth Africa in a restaurant in Danemark. Obviously if someone do this is because it is profitable. But this doesn't mean it is a good thing for environment. All these transport are a disaster in a long term.
Do you want to prohibit French water in Holland or German water in the UK?
This is ridiculous.
So maybe everything should be produced around the corner?

I don't say that Fiji water should be promoted. I never buy any water apart from supermarket own brands because it is all the same anyway. But if someone want to pay extra for it let him do it.
I don't want government to interfere with my life at the every step.
Please leave people at lest some freedoms. (I know not much left in Europe anyway)
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 01:17 AM   #254
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Do you want to prohibit French water in Holland or German water in the UK?
This is ridiculous.
So maybe everything should be produced around the corner?

I don't say that Fiji water should be promoted. I never buy any water apart from supermarket own brands because it is all the same anyway. But if someone want to pay extra for it let him do it.
I don't want government to interfere with my life at the every step.
Please leave people at lest some freedoms. (I know not much left in Europe anyway)
I am proud to say that I have never bought a bottle of water, it costs just as much to buy a coke or another less boring drink, so that's what i typically buy. True, if your local tap water isn't quite fit for drinking, then it's your only option, but where i live the tap water is just fine.

Back to trucking now plz?
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 12:24 PM   #255
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Transport politic is an interesting discussion that may be continued on another thread. And, as trucks are used to transport things, it is not a completely off-topic discussion.

Quote:
So maybe everything should be produced around the corner?
Yes. Or, if not everything, the simplest objects that can be manufactured locally (water, soap, pencils, ...). And obviously useless transports should be avodied.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 08:33 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
There is a big business of...water. Italian water is sold in France, French water is sold in Italy. I have ever seen a bottle filled in Soth Africa in a restaurant in Danemark. Obviously if someone do this is because it is profitable. But this doesn't mean it is a good thing for environment. All these transport are a disaster in a long term.
So what? There's a demand for it, and people pay for it. You can't say one transport is good and the other is bad. Don't blame the transport sector, blame us - consumers - for buying that stuff... If we wouldn't want it there was no need to transport it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
The target should be a reduction of transport, and the transfer of the remaining traffic on railways as more as possible. Even if this is more expensive.
I wonder how much people share that vision. It means people only have to pay more and more taxes while there's no apparent return for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "Coccodrillo
The economic crisis caused a diminution of 20 to 25% in the number of goods transported throught the Alps. A bad thing or the economy, a wonderful news for the environment...
Well, hell what a wonderful news. The crisis costed millions of jobs worldwide, but hey, hurray for the environment. Do you really think the environment is more important than the well-being of people?
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 09:58 PM   #257
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I wonder how much people share that vision. It means people only have to pay more and more taxes while there's no apparent return for it.
Not much, because in the short term it's only a cost.

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Do you really think the environment is more important than the well-being of people?
Both are important, but the second doesn't need the distruction of the first, nor viceversa.

20 years ago there were less transports, but I don't think people were poorer because of that.

And again, I don't think people should use the same objects manufactured by the same company in the same city they live. But I think that cream should be bottled where it is produced (in Switzerland, not in Central Italy), rubbish burnt near the city (in Naples/Austria, not in Germany/Lausanne), water taken fromk the aqueduct (if of good quality...because tap water it is drinkable nearly everywhere in Europe).
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:05 PM   #258
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20 years ago there were less transports, but I don't think people were poorer because of that.
20 years ago, the eastern block was very poor compared to now. Also: population was less in many areas 20 years ago.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 05:47 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Not much, because in the short term it's only a cost.
No, this is not just a short term cost. A railway needs expensive exploitation. Trains, employees, track maintanance etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Both are important, but the second doesn't need the distruction of the first, nor viceversa.
The money has to come from somewhere, my friend. As I said, taxes will have to raise since governments don't have moneytrees in their garden...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
20 years ago there were less transports, but I don't think people were poorer because of that.
Depends on your definition of "poor". A hunderd years ago there probably was even much less transport, but would you want to go back to that time? Transportation made our lifes so much better. And yes, you can discuss whether people currently aren't too spoiled with so much products from so many different countries. But that's the price you have to pay for of a good wellfare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
And again, I don't think people should use the same objects manufactured by the same company in the same city they live. But I think that cream should be bottled where it is produced (in Switzerland, not in Central Italy), rubbish burnt near the city (in Naples/Austria, not in Germany/Lausanne), water taken fromk the aqueduct (if of good quality...because tap water it is drinkable nearly everywhere in Europe).
Why do people buy Japanese or American cars instead of European ones?
Why do people go on holiday to New Zealand or the US, while they also can stay in their own country?
Why do people have relationships with people that live hunderds/thousands of kms away, while there sure will be sweet guys/girls living on the corner?

How far do you want to go in this vision?
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Old July 25th, 2009, 12:48 AM   #260
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Depends on your definition of "poor". A hunderd years ago there probably was even much less transport, but would you want to go back to that time?
I'm not speaking of 1895, but of the '80-'90. As I have found some statistics, I give the example of goods transported throught the Alps, defined from Ventimiglia to the Sememring/Wechsel passes.

1986: 97.6
1996: 138.3
2000: 173.3
2007: 210.0

I don't think that in 1996 life was really more difficult than today just because there were less transports.

Quote:
How far do you want to go in this vision?
American and Japanese cars are different, and one might want visit the US one year and Europe the next.

I accept these transports, as they offer different products. I don't want to go back to the XIX centtury. What I like less are useless transport like Italian rubbish recycled or burnt in Germany, Swiss cream bottled in italy, or South African water sold in in Danemark.
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