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Old July 29th, 2013, 03:01 AM   #321
G5man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
HEMU-430X is overtaking KTX-1



[0:31~1:14] HEMU-430X is overtaking KTX-1. Considering the speed gauge, the speed is about 400 km/h.
For a second I thought it wasn't travelling that fast, a second look at the spedometer shows otherwise.

Last edited by G5man; July 29th, 2013 at 03:06 AM.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
[1:15~2:39] The view from the driver's cabin on the back. The speed looks slower than the previous part(0:31~1:14), so I think it's a different video.
It must be a different video: In the first part the KTX was on the right the HEMU on the left, in the last part the other way around.
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Old September 1st, 2013, 03:47 AM   #323
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I suffered yesterday. Trains crash near Daegu Station affected the Sepul-Busan HSL.

Quote:
Bullet train collision halts Seoul-Busan rail traffic

DAEGU, Aug. 31 (Yonhap) -- Two passenger trains collided Saturday near Daegu station bringing all rail traffic between Seoul and Busan to a standstill, authorities said.

Korea Railroad Corp. (KOTRAIL) said the accident, which took place some 300 kilometers southeast of Seoul, involved a KTX bullet train and a Mugungwha passenger train. It said no one was seriously injured or killed although some passengers suffered abrasions. All passengers on both trains were safely evacuated and taken by bus or taxi to nearby East Daegu Station.
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/nati...000600315.html








Here a video from me:




And TV report from Yonhap News:

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Old September 1st, 2013, 03:53 AM   #324
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Any idea how it happened yet?
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Old September 1st, 2013, 07:07 PM   #325
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Good thing no one was hurt, and it looks like it didn't happen at high speed. Can't imagine a replay of the Spanish incident from a month ago.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 05:19 AM   #326
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Quote:
Any idea how it happened yet?
According to the latest JoongAng Ilbo report, the Mugungwha train (the loco-hauled train) which was stopped at Daegu Station, proceeded while ignoring the red signal (SPAD situation), which led to the collision with the passing KTX train.

However, why the Mugungwha train did so is still up to question. Apparently, the Mugunghwa train was originally/normally scheduled to depart before the passing of the KTX train. However, 5 minutes before the scheduled departure time of said train, the Korail CTC responsible for this line changed the schedule- with the KTX train passing through before the departure of the Mugungwha and informed Daegu Station of such. Daegu Sta. was supposed to inform the train conductor of the change, but the train conductor stated he did not hear any such message from the station control.

Another possible factor is the positioning of the signals at Daegu Station- the departure signal for the track the Mugungwha train and the signal for the through track the KTX was on are separated only by 7~8 meters. Some are surmising that both the driver and conductor of the train mistook the signals- thinking the green aspect for the KTX train was theirs. Apparently back in 2008, at the same Daegu Station (but with a different set of signals), a similar misreading occurred, resulting in a rear-end collision between a Mugungwha passenger train and a freight train.

News report (Japanese edition of JoongAng Ilbo):
http://japanese.joins.com/article/64...0&sectcode=430

English language report, which dwells more on the description of the incident:
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/...home|newslist1
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 06:02 AM   #327
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I'd say it's a safe bet that the signals at Daegu station are going to be changed after this. It's frankly very surprising that they weren't changed after the first accident.

And thank goodness for the Jacob's bogies of the KTX-I. I imagine keeping the two high-speed trains in one piece did a lot to minimize damage and injury in this particular incident.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 06:57 AM   #328
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I have doubts about the 230km/h speed (143mph) of the KTX train, as reported in the English language article (something lost in translation?). First of all, if a line is governed by lineside signals, speeds limits are typically 125mph max- any faster is unsafe. Also I believe Daegu Station is on the conventional, non-HSR portion of this line, one that shares traffic with slow passenger trains and freight, no place for 140mph running.

Last edited by k.k.jetcar; September 2nd, 2013 at 08:52 AM.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 04:41 PM   #329
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You're probably right; isn't it Dongdaegu station that serves the KTX route through the city?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:51 AM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
First of all, if a line is governed by lineside signals, speeds limits are typically 125mph max- any faster is unsafe.
It's not uncommon for 2 systems to co-exist on the same line. In Germany ,for instance, PZB and LZB can be and are installed together. In fact one of the design goals of ERTMS is it's ability to co-exist with a legacy system.

On the high speed lines in Korea TVM430 is used, does anyone have info on the system used on normal lines (if any!)?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 10:36 AM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
It's not uncommon for 2 systems to co-exist on the same line. In Germany ,for instance, PZB and LZB can be and are installed together. In fact one of the design goals of ERTMS is it's ability to co-exist with a legacy system.

On the high speed lines in Korea TVM430 is used, does anyone have info on the system used on normal lines (if any!)?
Conventional lines are equipped with ATS, which is similar to the ATS-S or ATS-P systems used on Japanese railways (lineside signals with overspeed control).

More info: the up KTX train was doing 110km/h when passing through Daegu Station. The down KTX train which was also involved in the accident had luckily slowed to 40km/h when it impacted.

All signs point to train staff error and poor communication. In addition, apparently the conductor of the Mugungwha train was a replacement recently moved from a desk job, as the regular conductor for this service refused to work on a holiday.

Chosun online Japanese edition article, with diagram of accident site:
http://www.chosunonline.com/site/dat...090201042.html

English edition, with considerably less detail, especially re. the technical/personnel matters:
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...090201606.html
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 11:57 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post

It's not uncommon for 2 systems to co-exist on the same line. In Germany ,for instance, PZB and LZB can be and are installed together. In fact one of the design goals of ERTMS is it's ability to co-exist with a legacy system.
As a back-up level, yes, not to work at the same time.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:44 PM   #333
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My remark was more geared towards the fact that over 200 km/h, line side signalling gets very difficult to see. In those cases you can use more systems on the same line.
In case of Germany it also allows trains not fitted with LZB to use certain lines, so to call it a back-up is not really accurate. However in case of a choice use of the best control system available to you is recommended.

Back to Korea: The Japanese ATS-P/S already enforces speed restrictions before the red signal to minimise overshoot if a SPAD should happen. Does the Korean system also provide this function?

I know that in Germany they added 'restricted mode' to PZB a few years ago, just to prevent starting trains from approaching a red signal at to high a speed.
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Old September 4th, 2013, 10:18 PM   #334
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A close call, if there is even one death Korea will be eliminated from the Brazilian HSR competition.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:47 AM   #335
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You're probably right even though, in fairness, it wasn't a high speed train which caused the accident, the high speed trains involved in the accident essentially aren't Korean high speed trains, and it wasn't actually on a high speed line.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 07:14 AM   #336
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Quote:
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A close call, if there is even one death Korea will be eliminated from the Brazilian HSR competition.
I find the Brazilian rule a bit odd and suspicious, almost as if it were politically motivated to favor certain groups, rather than one motivated by concerns for safety. It penalizes HSR operators for accidents beyond the scope of the Brazilian project- namely operations on conventional lines where some HSR trains operate, which are inherently at higher risk for accidents, given the mix of traffic and traffic control systems. But such a rule also has potential to backfire, if the favored group(s), if any, find themselves with an accident in their backyard.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 07:17 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
I find the Brazilian rule a bit odd and suspicious, almost as if it were politically motivated to favor certain groups, rather than one motivated by concerns for safety. It penalizes HSR operators for accidents beyond the scope of the Brazilian project- namely operations on conventional lines where some HSR trains operate, which are inherently at higher risk for accidents, given the mix of traffic and traffic control systems. But such a rule also has potential to backfire, if the favored group(s), if any, find themselves with an accident in their backyard.
With that kind of ruling most all HSR systems will be disqualified.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 07:28 AM   #338
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With that kind of ruling most all HSR systems will be disqualified.
Yes, and the fact that the Brazilian government has had to re-schedule/postpone bidding numerous times points to conditions that few operators/builders are able or willing to meet.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 03:50 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
I find the Brazilian rule a bit odd and suspicious, almost as if it were politically motivated to favor certain groups, rather than one motivated by concerns for safety.
I think the Brazilians have the right idea, in that they do seem motivated by safety concerns, but it's possible that the rules were made up by politicians who don't understand high-speed rail, or rail operations in general, hence making such statements. It's just like people who refuse to fly an Airbus in the aftermath of AF 447 for example, because an Airbus crashed.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #340
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