SOUTH KOREA | High Speed Rail

[elfabyanos]

Love the photos, got any more? Links? Korea HSR needs a higher profile on these forums.

[trainrover]

Originally Posted by asahi

design looks so much better. I like it. Nice train

I agree. The first thing I thought was that it's easy on the eyes and calm-looking on a personal level, which seems to be less and less a rage nowadays.

[ruready1000]

Another photos of KTX-II














photos from korail490










































photos from korail5148

[Momo1435]

That's one nice looking TGV ehhh I mean KTX.

But the interior is bit plain, that could've been better.

Now it's time for Rotem to develop their own HST EMU, they should be able to do that now.

[harsh1802]

Fantastic!

[davsot]

Great photos@!!

[Gag Halfrunt]

Originally Posted by Momo1435

That's one nice looking TGV ehhh I mean KTX.

But the interior is bit plain, that could've been better.

Now it's time for Rotem to develop their own HST EMU, they should be able to do that now.

Officially at least, the KTX-II is a totally original design. It still looks like a TGV though.

[Momo1435]

I guess the whole concept of having power cars with articulated cars in between is just so trademark TGV that when another company uses he the same concept it's always will be like a copy. You don't get that with more conventional non articulated high speed trains, like the ICE 1 and the ETR 500.

[zergcerebrates]

Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt

Officially at least, the KTX-II is a totally original design. It still looks like a TGV though.

If its a totally original design it wouldn't of still look like a TGV. The front might be original but the carriages are not exterior wise.

[ruready1000]

KTX-II is sort of son from same father and different mother, so you can say it looks like TGV and has TGV DNA, of course.

[bluemeansgo]

Who cares if it looks like the TGV. Sounds like a lot of sour grapes here.

[riles28]

Can Japanese Shinkansen are possible to run in Korail?

[urbanfan89]

I think so. They share the same track gauge and electric system (25 kV 60 Hz AC). Whether it's feasible to build a bridge/tunnel is another question.

[Micrav]

The maybe sad thing in this beautiful train is the way they used the DNA of TGV. It reminds me the old story of Japanese and Koreans, now Chinese copying european or American products (cars, motorbikes, mobile phones, etc. ) Don't they have any pride in creating something original coming from their guts? Not trying to create something original. I know it is a business strategy to copy, even correcting defaults or making better quality and cheaper. Now Honda makes their own original design, but Toyota still copies its rival (see new Avensis inspired by Mazda 6). Asian companies should throw their cameras, stop reading magazines away and start from white paper their new designs. There are excellent asian designers who can do much better than copying style or ideas. When I was at Berlin, I saw again a bunch of asian photographers taking pictures of every single detail of some trains (caught one taking pictures of door opening buttons in train toilets). What do you call this? Market study? Let me laugh. You visit such exhibition to get inspired and motivated, not to copy...

There is no global design or design for the world.
Design is made locally and adopted by the world or not.

If Asia would understand this, they would be much more creative and China would stop dumping crap toys and products in our markets. We love Asia, but not necessary Asian copies that gives us back a faded image of our products in the mirror

Look again front of TGV of Rotem, headlight scheme is inspired by Velaros...
They only thing I would understand is that Alstom gave a licence to Rotem and that Koreans adapted the design...

Or I wander if it is not a first generation TGV refurbishment... I know that SNCF sold some to LaPoste for example. Could be one explanation and smart move then...

The last reason I would understand is that Alstom did not deposited the licence in Korea or Korea did not accept licence of TGV or does not protect well esign and licences (like in China), then Rotem can produce a copy if they want but cannot sell to a country who respects Alstom licences.

Everything is open. I am not sour, I have two friends of Korean origin and discovered a bit of Korea throough them, I just wish Asian companies would make their own true original designs.

[ruready1000]

Originally Posted by Micrav

The maybe sad thing in this beautiful train is the way they used the DNA of TGV. It reminds me the old story of Japanese and Koreans, now Chinese copying european or American products (cars, motorbikes, mobile phones, etc. ) Don't they have any pride in creating something original coming from their guts? Not trying to create something original. I know it is a business strategy to copy, even correcting defaults or making better quality and cheaper. Now Honda makes their own original design, but Toyota still copies its rival (see new Avensis inspired by Mazda 6). Asian companies should throw their cameras, stop reading magazines away and start from white paper their new designs. There are excellent asian designers who can do much better than copying style or ideas. When I was at Berlin, I saw again a bunch of asian photographers taking pictures of every single detail of some trains (caught one taking pictures of door opening buttons in train toilets). What do you call this? Market study? Let me laugh. You visit such exhibition to get inspired and motivated, not to copy...

There is no global design or design for the world.
Design is made locally and adopted by the world or not.

If Asia would understand this, they would be much more creative and China would stop dumping crap toys and products in our markets. We love Asia, but not necessary Asian copies that gives us back a faded image of our products in the mirror

Look again front of TGV of Rotem, headlight scheme is inspired by Velaros...
They only thing I would understand is that Alstom gave a licence to Rotem and that Koreans adapted the design...

Or I wander if it is not a first generation TGV refurbishment... I know that SNCF sold some to LaPoste for example. Could be one explanation and smart move then...

The last reason I would understand is that Alstom did not deposited the licence in Korea or Korea did not accept licence of TGV or does not protect well esign and licences (like in China), then Rotem can produce a copy if they want but cannot sell to a country who respects Alstom licences.

Everything is open. I am not sour, I have two friends of Korean origin and discovered a bit of Korea throough them, I just wish Asian companies would make their own true original designs.

When you criticize something you have to do it with the firm proof, not with the firm faith. It's absolutely ok if you think it as a copy but you have to be careful when makeing a assumption. I can't understand how you think ROTEM can ignore Alstom's right. I don't have the details of what's licensed or not in KTX-II so you have any information or source then let me know.

And the ASIA things is totally derailed. If you think it copied TGV or, say, Velaro as you said, then stay on your rail.

The reason I said KTX-II had DNA of TGV is, when they made a contract Alstom agreed to transfer knowledge and technology to korea so that there're many aspects handed down from it with some exceptions.

[Tri-ring]

One thing is for sure, trains does not sell because it's design is esthetic pleasing, it sells because it's functionality suits the needs of the buyer.
I am quite sure no train operator anywhere around the world is going to pay a high price just because it looks "cool".
Whether it looks like the TGV or not has nothing to do with the functionality of the KTX-II, let's not forget that.

[ruready1000]

Originally Posted by riles28

Can Japanese Shinkansen are possible to run in Korail?

As far as I know no problem, except that :

1. many shinkansen series have witdth of 3,380mm and KTX 2,904mm so there can be some gaps on platform.

2. it's related to first problem, if 3,380mm width of shinkansen may be adopted, it may not be possible to run on conventional rail because of gaps on platform. Mini Shinkansen(2,945mm width) may have no problem.

This is what I know so you can correct me if there's wrong information.

[Micrav]

Originally Posted by ruready1000

When you criticize something you have to do it with the firm proof, not with the firm faith. It's absolutely ok if you think it as a copy but you have to be careful when makeing a assumption. I can't understand how you think ROTEM can ignore Alstom's right. I don't have the details of what's licensed or not in KTX-II so you have any information or source then let me know.

I think that not knowing I was writing a few possibilities.

Originally Posted by ruready1000

And the ASIA things is totally derailed. If you think it copied TGV or, say, Velaro as you said, then stay on your rail.

The reason I said KTX-II had DNA of TGV is, when they made a contract Alstom agreed to transfer knowledge and technology to korea so that there're many aspects handed down from it with some exceptions.

Then I agree completely and understand fully (was in my text). You say that here has been an agreement between Alstom and Rotem. This explains that

It is common to use car and train technology under contract. Design of KTX is beautiful, nothing to say about it!!! I just regret, and you can allow me this that Korean design is not very Korean style origin, Korean design cars, fridges, cell phones for "Western style" markets, often made by western designers by the way. It looks so European to me (even if it is good for my European colleagues who are not out of job...

Hyundai is changing now, but only recently. Design carries values behind a product, design is not only style. Style is only one function among others, the signature of the designer usually... I really like genuine design from Asia, but maybe I am one of the only (I really like what Mazda does for example, they don't look like any other car nowadays). Don't misunderstand me. I always promote authenticity.

In a very old book I found in a library, one of the first designers who could really bear this name due to his work (Henry van de Velde, created the first design schools in Germany before giving it to Walter Gropius in Weimar that lead to Bauhaus just before WW1, created La Cambre in Belgium, designed first Belgian electric train, houses, jewelry, etc. like it was common at that time), speaking about the column was saying this. More or less, from far memory: "For a building, if you use an ancient column, you need to understand the principle of the column and its ornaments. If you use fake or copy ancient columns nowadays to design a building, then you did not understand something the column." ndlr If the column is wrong, then the onee who makes fake columns for the house is fooling himself.

In this global world, I am pleading for local design that goes international. This is a question of roots. Korea has something genuine to say to the world through products like any other country does. China too. I am expecting true Chinese Design soon with their thousands of designers studying in newly opened schools all over China. I am expecting African product design one day, real Russian good design, etc.

So don't misunderstand me, be inspired by your own culture. This is what is great!

Ex. logo of Belgian Railway designed in 1926 and still in use today. Almost timeless design (doesn't it remind a bit Samsung logo? )

[agaristagari]

HEMU-400X looks like a completely indigenous design




I think it would be stupid not to copy when you are still in process of figuring out how to do thing. Else you would need to learn everything what lead to the final product by trial and error and would have repeated same research someone had done before you. Whereas you could just learn what others have done and hopefully make better products by yourself in the future.

[ruready1000]

Originally Posted by Micrav

I think that not knowing I was writing a few possibilities.



Then I agree completely and understand fully (was in my text). You say that here has been an agreement between Alstom and Rotem. This explains that

It is common to use car and train technology under contract. Design of KTX is beautiful, nothing to say about it!!! I just regret, and you can allow me this that Korean design is not very Korean style origin, Korean design cars, fridges, cell phones for "Western style" markets, often made by western designers by the way. It looks so European to me (even if it is good for my European colleagues who are not out of job...

Hyundai is changing now, but only recently. Design carries values behind a product, design is not only style. Style is only one function among others, the signature of the designer usually... I really like genuine design from Asia, but maybe I am one of the only (I really like what Mazda does for example, they don't look like any other car nowadays). Don't misunderstand me. I always promote authenticity.

In a very old book I found in a library, one of the first designers who could really bear this name due to his work (Henry van de Velde, created the first design schools in Germany before giving it to Walter Gropius in Weimar that lead to Bauhaus just before WW1, created La Cambre in Belgium, designed first Belgian electric train, houses, jewelry, etc. like it was common at that time), speaking about the column was saying this. More or less, from far memory: "For a building, if you use an ancient column, you need to understand the principle of the column and its ornaments. If you use fake or copy ancient columns nowadays to design a building, then you did not understand something the column." ndlr If the column is wrong, then the onee who makes fake columns for the house is fooling himself.

In this global world, I am pleading for local design that goes international. This is a question of roots. Korea has something genuine to say to the world through products like any other country does. China too. I am expecting true Chinese Design soon with their thousands of designers studying in newly opened schools all over China. I am expecting African product design one day, real Russian good design, etc.

So don't misunderstand me, be inspired by your own culture. This is what is great!

Ex. logo of Belgian Railway designed in 1926 and still in use today. Almost timeless design (doesn't it remind a bit Samsung logo? )

As you said the originality is very important. I don't want to argue it.

The funny thing is ROTEM says they had tried to chase down korean originality or korean style in designing KTX-II. According to ROTEM when they designed the exterior they got inspiration from korean native fish, San-Cheon(cherry salmon) but I think it failed, considering you didn't seem to take any hints of it and for me it looks like an eel rather than salmon.