daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 29th, 2015, 10:05 AM   #501
Sr.Horn
té con pastas member
 
Sr.Horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,462



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post
This is an information from tonight's KBS News 9. It's about the HEMU 430-X or its development.

Starts on 37:21


Korean High Speed Railway is not ready for the HEMU-430X if want more than 350km/h top speed (max tested is 421 km/h). They needs more money for research budget, 110.1B ₩ (around 81 million euro if I understand well...)





This paper in 2011 wants the major nation hub (Seoul) connected in 90 minutes...



When simulations with HEMU 430X operates like current KTX Seoul - Busan stopping at Daejeon and Daegu station, the travel time is 1h 58min, average speed is 219km/h (for 350km/h top speed)





Other informations I've been told, at 305km/h a track switcher on Dongdaegu - Busan sector (newest with Slab track) broke down and trains runs now at 150km/h when pass the stations... Maybe for that, they needs an extra 670B ₩ (500 million euro) for infrastructure improvements.

Please, the information is so confusing. Someone who are korean native could translate the news report, thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
The main point of this news is :
  • Without upgrading the track and signal it's nearly impossible to meet the government's plan connecting major cities within 90 minutes.
    - According to the simulation it takes 114 minutes. Considering it stops at two station, it's not that bad.
    - And it's not apparent from this news that the simulation considers Suseo HSR, Daejeon and Daegu dedicated track.
  • In order to upgrade the track and signal, the cost is estmated at about 600 million dollar.

I think there's no chance that HEMU is not commercialized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
With the new routing through Daejeon, Daegu will obviously be sped up, and as far as I know, the current switching at Daejeon is one of the spots on the line causing service to be slower than it otherwise would be, so that won't be an issue as soon as the work is complete.

What Korea will really need one speeds are up across the line is a medium-speed train (~250km/h) to supplement the new Saemaul EMU's (~150km/h) and expand service underneath the full high-speed KTX trains (which look to be maybe ~350km/h in the future with track upgrades), but last I heard, one of those is in the works, so things in Korea are progressing smoothly. It's just a question of whether the HEMU is going to be a big upgrade in speed that's accompanied by upgraded rails, or if it's going to end up being a smaller one that goes maybe 20km/h faster than KTX-I and KTX-II trains.

After all, a lot of places in Korea would be 90 minutes to Seoul or less without more infrastructure work than is already planned, anyway; Seoul-Busan is the longest possible route in South Korea (save for the tunnel to Jeju, which really should happen), so if that was still >90 minutes, that should be okay.
__________________

JuaanAcosta, Svartmetall liked this post
Sr.Horn no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 8th, 2015, 12:28 PM   #502
Sr.Horn
té con pastas member
 
Sr.Horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,462

Quote:
New KTX rail will skip over Daejeon



Korea’s transport authority announced on Thursday that faster bullet train services set to start running on a new high-speed track in the southwestern part of the country in April will not pass through central metropolis of Daejeon.

...

Current KTX rides from the capital to Gwangju, located 330 kilometers (205 miles) southwest, take approximately 2.5 hours on conventional tracks. On the new railway, however, trains that currently run 150 kilometers per hour will be able to double their speed.

...

But those warm sentiments froze just before the new track was to open next month, when the Korea Railway Corporation (Korail), the operator of the bullet trains, announced last month that 18 of the 82 services planned to run on the Honam High Speed Railway every day would pass through Seodaejeon Station on the conventional track.

Korail’s decision was based on data that 30 percent of the passengers using the southwestern portion of the country’s high-speed railway were from that station in Daejeon.

The announcement, however, was immediately denounced by policy makers representing the Jeolla region, who argued that the extra 43 minutes from Seoul’s Yongsan Station to Gwangju Songjeong Station, if stopping midway at Seodaejeon Station, will inconvenience passengers.

Added to the fact that it was ditching its plan to run the new bullet trains through Daejeon, the Transport Ministry said in its press release that only 68 KTX rides will be available on the new Honam High Speed Railway, a change from the previous 82.
Korea Joongang Daily

YTN News Report:

__________________

dimlys1994 liked this post
Sr.Horn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 02:14 PM   #503
goldbough
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,020
Likes (Received): 3366

Another map of the new route


http://realestate.daum.net/news/deta...114824763.daum

Quote:
But those warm sentiments froze just before the new track was to open next month, when the Korea Railway Corporation (Korail), the operator of the bullet trains, announced last month that 18 of the 82 services planned to run on the Honam High Speed Railway every day would pass through Seodaejeon Station on the conventional track.

Korail’s decision was based on data that 30 percent of the passengers using the southwestern portion of the country’s high-speed railway were from that station in Daejeon.

The announcement, however, was immediately denounced by policy makers representing the Jeolla region, who argued that the extra 43 minutes from Seoul’s Yongsan Station to Gwangju Songjeong Station, if stopping midway at Seodaejeon Station, will inconvenience passengers.
I think they'd be crazy to totally skip Daejeon so stopping in Seo Daejeon (서대전) makes sense. There are a lot of buses from Daejeon West Terminal (대전 서부터미널) to Gongju (공주), but the time savings of taking the KTX from there will be totally or almost wiped out by taking the bus out there. I believe it's about 30 minutes by bus. Maybe they will increase the number of buses or run a bus mainly to go to the KTX station like Ulsan.
__________________
http://www.pbase.com/goldbough

dimlys1994 liked this post
goldbough no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #504
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8794

Seems mad to skip such a big important city. I still don't know why they can rationalise that despite what they say.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 11:41 PM   #505
DaeguDuke
Meat popsicle
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,579
Likes (Received): 1888

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Seems mad to skip such a big important city. I still don't know why they can rationalise that despite what they say.
It won't be skipped. 10% of the trains will go through despite the huge detour it will be for the majority of others riding the line. It's stated that currently 70% of riders are going to other stops. 18 trains a day on top of the slow train (even though this will be reduced in frequency) is still more than enough to cater for those passengers. If it saved 45 min off the Busan/Daegu link they'd run express trains to those places too if it was faster for 70% of riders. I suspect that the decision was made due to congestion on the KTX line running through downtown Daejeon..
__________________

aquaticko liked this post
DaeguDuke está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 12:25 AM   #506
kimahrikku1
Registered User
 
kimahrikku1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seoul, Korea
Posts: 4,451
Likes (Received): 7187

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
It won't be skipped. 10% of the trains will go through despite the huge detour it will be for the majority of others riding the line. It's stated that currently 70% of riders are going to other stops. 18 trains a day on top of the slow train (even though this will be reduced in frequency) is still more than enough to cater for those passengers. If it saved 45 min off the Busan/Daegu link they'd run express trains to those places too if it was faster for 70% of riders. I suspect that the decision was made due to congestion on the KTX line running through downtown Daejeon..
I think they made the right call. With the HSR line the way it is, it is probably the best solution. Now back when they designed the HSR line, it might have made sense to build it after Daejeon (rather than before from Osong). But thay would have already been a detour.

Korea is very Seoul-centric, and most people just want to go from Seoul to another city, rather than from provincial city A to provincial city B. Sure, there are some people who want to ride from Daejeon to Gwangju, but it's a small minority, that doesn't warrant delaying trains for as much as 45 minutes just for such a small portion of the track. I think given the political history of Korea, sacrificing a true high speed rail option to Jeolla - the impoverished province long shunned by politicans - to benefit cities along the GyeongBu line would have been perceived as an affront by Jeolla residents.

Finally, it's not like there will be no traffic whatsoever between Daejeon and Gwangju, people will "just" have to change trains at Iksan (or go back up to Osong and hop on another Honam-bound KTX). It is certainly a bit of a hassle, but it's better than have a bunch of Honam train make a detour of almost an hour if few passengers actually get off the train in Daejeon
kimahrikku1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 12:45 AM   #507
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8794

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
It won't be skipped. 10% of the trains will go through despite the huge detour it will be for the majority of others riding the line. It's stated that currently 70% of riders are going to other stops. 18 trains a day on top of the slow train (even though this will be reduced in frequency) is still more than enough to cater for those passengers. If it saved 45 min off the Busan/Daegu link they'd run express trains to those places too if it was faster for 70% of riders. I suspect that the decision was made due to congestion on the KTX line running through downtown Daejeon..
Yes I saw that hence why I said about reading their justification, but still, a 30% current PAX unload is quite significant if you ask me as it doesn't take into account future growth. If one is trying to decentralise from Seoul, connecting up "provincial" cities seems to me to be an intelligent way to do that. More connections = greater chance of future growth. Perhaps I am wrong, though. I mean, to put it into context, it would be like the new Chuo Shinkansen missing Nagoya and only connecting Osaka and Tokyo - completely unthinkable these days (forgetting the fact that JR Central is building it of course).
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 01:16 AM   #508
aquaticko
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,995
Likes (Received): 1031

It's not like Daejeon and Seodaejeon are that far apart--just a few km's away. If they can provide quick transit between those two stations (I think there might already be a metro system connection), and found that demand necessitated or regional rebalancing required straightening the track between Seodaejeon and where the old Honam line meets up with the new HSL to speed up travel between Daejeon and Gwangju, they could without too much trouble.

If they're really interested in regional rebalancing via passenger rail upgrades, they should connect the two major metro areas in the southern half of the country, Gwangju and Busan, with their own high speed line.
aquaticko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 01:40 AM   #509
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8794

Indeed, and I think that'd be an awesome idea. It's one thing I often puzzled about in France too - too much Paris centralisation in the TGV network, no links between Bordeaux and Marseilles via Toulouse. Alas, that won't happen there I don't think...
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 02:10 AM   #510
goldbough
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,020
Likes (Received): 3366

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
If they're really interested in regional rebalancing via passenger rail upgrades, they should connect the two major metro areas in the southern half of the country, Gwangju and Busan, with their own high speed line.
Now this is what I've wondered. A bus currently takes 3.5 hours from Busan to Gwangju. I think a KTX line would be about 1.5 hours. As long as they don't build it near Jirisan and mess up the nature there. I'd prefer it to go right north of Suncheon so people could connect to Yeosu.
__________________
http://www.pbase.com/goldbough
goldbough no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 06:25 PM   #511
aquaticko
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,995
Likes (Received): 1031

I'm sure that if they ever do a Gyeongjun (Busan-Gwangju) HSL, they'll stay along the south coast, where all the cities are. Busan, Changwon, Yeosu/Gwangyang/Suncheon, then Gwangju seems like the obvious route, which'd leave all of the natural areas alone.

There just seem like so many obvious benefits to a line there that I have to believe they're planning on it eventually. I know the long term plan is rail upgrades to 230kmh service by 2020 or so, but why not just go for a full-on, dedicated, 300kmh line? Korea loves construction projects economically, after all.
aquaticko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2015, 01:14 AM   #512
DaeguDuke
Meat popsicle
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,579
Likes (Received): 1888

I thought the long term plan is upgrades of the Busan-Jinju onwards to Suncheon and Gwangju? Once the upgraded line showed it was a popular service then a full KTX line might be built?
DaeguDuke está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2015, 05:06 AM   #513
ruready1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 760
Likes (Received): 107


HEMU-430X Test Run On Honam HSR


KTX Test Run On Honam HSR


KTX-Sancheon On Honam Conventional Track
__________________
ruready1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2015, 04:56 PM   #514
ruready1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 760
Likes (Received): 107


Honam High Speed Railway | in Jangseong


Honam High Speed Railway | in Jangseong


Honam High Speed Railway | in Jeongeup
__________________

dimlys1994, Sr.Horn liked this post
ruready1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2015, 04:04 AM   #515
kimahrikku1
Registered User
 
kimahrikku1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seoul, Korea
Posts: 4,451
Likes (Received): 7187

I looked a bit into development for the HEMU-430X today, and I stumbled upon this article (which dates back to september):

http://news.sbs.co.kr/news/endPage.d...id=N1002575249

It says that they will try to reach a top speed of 450km/hr (or even up to 460, according to other sources).

Also, another point (which isn't really a "point" because I know little about railway technology and economics):

Higher top speed is good, so it's nice to see that they're still pushing forward with the Hemu. But, what's probably more important is acceleration speed. Korea being a dense country, it's hard to make trains run full speed over long distances, due to close proximity between major cities. Probably explains why in the simulation run in October, the Hemu would still need 1h54 (the plan was for 1h30min) to go from Seoul to Busan. I don't know the exact sections of the line, but with all the mountains in the country, I think KTX trains don't run at 300kph on some (many?) parts of the line.

Regarding acceleration, it takes the HEMU (at least took when they run the initial tests), 3 minutes 53 seconds to reach 300kph (which is 68 seconds better than the Sancheon KTX). I don't know if deceleration times has been improved as well, but these are probably key issues, maybe even more so than the glamorous Top Speed record.

With all (or almost) all trains stopping at least in Daejeon and Daegu, and many at other stations as well, I'm sure the acceleration/deceleration performance has a huge effect on travel times.


In any case, the current time gain from HEMU over Sancheon is probably not enough to justify a huge HEMU-order (as well as probable line upgrade) when looking strictly at the bottom line. I doubt however that we won't see commercial versions of the HEMU on Korean HSR network. It will probably be used to promote Korea as a country and economic powerhouse, and potentially facilitate KTX exports.
__________________

aquaticko liked this post
kimahrikku1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2015, 05:46 AM   #516
aquaticko
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,995
Likes (Received): 1031

I don't know enough about HSR and/or electric motors to say whether or not top speed correlates well with acceleration times, but it seems likely there'd be a correlation, so it's likely that the two goals can be pursued simultaneously. Not to mention that as Korea obviously wants to export trainsets, including to places like Brazil and the U.S. which could use top speed, it's understandable that they'd want to advertise high top speeds.

You're right, though; most service improvements will come from better acceleration, but also increased service frequencies via more mid-speed trains and a wider variety of service classes. Right now, there's a big drop from KTX down to ITX-Saemaul trains, on the order of a 150km/h difference, if I remember correctly. There's clearly room in the middle.
aquaticko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2015, 05:08 PM   #517
ruready1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 760
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimahrikku1 View Post
In any case, the current time gain from HEMU over Sancheon is probably not enough to justify a huge HEMU-order (as well as probable line upgrade) when looking strictly at the bottom line. I doubt however that we won't see commercial versions of the HEMU on Korean HSR network. It will probably be used to promote Korea as a country and economic powerhouse, and potentially facilitate KTX exports.
The trainsets for Honam HSR and Suseo HSR(currently the biggest demand for HSR trainsets) were already ordered so there will be no huge HEMU orders unless another HSR network is being built or massive KTX trains are retired from service.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
You're right, though; most service improvements will come from better acceleration, but also increased service frequencies via more mid-speed trains and a wider variety of service classes. Right now, there's a big drop from KTX down to ITX-Saemaul trains, on the order of a 150km/h difference, if I remember correctly. There's clearly room in the middle.

The current KTX service on conventional track such as Gyeongjeon, Jeolla and Pohang is using both HSR and conventional network. In result there would be bottle neck if mid-speed trains (+- 200km/h) are running on HSR network with high-speed trains. Mid-speed trains would be needed, of course, where the network(especially upgraded mid-speed conventional track) is wholly seperated from HSR network or it doesn't cause bottle neck on HSR track.
ruready1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2015, 05:16 PM   #518
ruready1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 760
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I'm sure that if they ever do a Gyeongjun (Busan-Gwangju) HSL, they'll stay along the south coast, where all the cities are. Busan, Changwon, Yeosu/Gwangyang/Suncheon, then Gwangju seems like the obvious route, which'd leave all of the natural areas alone.

There just seem like so many obvious benefits to a line there that I have to believe they're planning on it eventually. I know the long term plan is rail upgrades to 230kmh service by 2020 or so, but why not just go for a full-on, dedicated, 300kmh line? Korea loves construction projects economically, after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
I thought the long term plan is upgrades of the Busan-Jinju onwards to Suncheon and Gwangju? Once the upgraded line showed it was a popular service then a full KTX line might be built?
I think no possibilty of full-on, dedicated 300km/h line on Geyongjeon line(Busan and Gwangju). Simply there's no enough demand.
ruready1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2015, 05:48 PM   #519
aquaticko
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,995
Likes (Received): 1031

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
I think no possibilty of full-on, dedicated 300km/h line on Geyongjeon line(Busan and Gwangju). Simply there's no enough demand.
I don't doubt that there's not enough demand, but if the government wants South Korea to be less Seoul-centric, they have to do something to stimulate economic activity along another axis, and Gwangju-Busan is the only one which could conceivably even come close to the Gyeongbu corridor.
aquaticko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2015, 05:49 PM   #520
ruready1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 760
Likes (Received): 107

I've filmed some KTX clips running on Honam coventional line cause it would be a rare sight(especially between Jeongeup, Jangseong and Gwangju-songjeong) when Honam HSR is in service.




KTX-Sancheon on Honam conventional line | near Jangseong Station


KTX-Sancheon on Honam conventional line | near Noryeong Station(not in service) in Jeongeup


KTX-Sancheon on Honam conventional line | near Noryeong Station(not in service) in Jeongeup


KTX on Honam conventional line | near Naejangsan IC in Jeongeup
ruready1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium