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Old March 17th, 2009, 11:01 AM   #61
bluemeansgo
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Who cares if it looks like the TGV. Sounds like a lot of sour grapes here.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 07:02 AM   #62
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Can Japanese Shinkansen are possible to run in Korail?
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Old March 18th, 2009, 10:35 AM   #63
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I think so. They share the same track gauge and electric system (25 kV 60 Hz AC). Whether it's feasible to build a bridge/tunnel is another question.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #64
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The maybe sad thing in this beautiful train is the way they used the DNA of TGV. It reminds me the old story of Japanese and Koreans, now Chinese copying european or American products (cars, motorbikes, mobile phones, etc. ) Don't they have any pride in creating something original coming from their guts? Not trying to create something original. I know it is a business strategy to copy, even correcting defaults or making better quality and cheaper. Now Honda makes their own original design, but Toyota still copies its rival (see new Avensis inspired by Mazda 6). Asian companies should throw their cameras, stop reading magazines away and start from white paper their new designs. There are excellent asian designers who can do much better than copying style or ideas. When I was at Berlin, I saw again a bunch of asian photographers taking pictures of every single detail of some trains (caught one taking pictures of door opening buttons in train toilets). What do you call this? Market study? Let me laugh. You visit such exhibition to get inspired and motivated, not to copy...

There is no global design or design for the world.
Design is made locally and adopted by the world or not.


If Asia would understand this, they would be much more creative and China would stop dumping crap toys and products in our markets. We love Asia, but not necessary Asian copies that gives us back a faded image of our products in the mirror

Look again front of TGV of Rotem, headlight scheme is inspired by Velaros...
They only thing I would understand is that Alstom gave a licence to Rotem and that Koreans adapted the design...

Or I wander if it is not a first generation TGV refurbishment... I know that SNCF sold some to LaPoste for example. Could be one explanation and smart move then...

The last reason I would understand is that Alstom did not deposited the licence in Korea or Korea did not accept licence of TGV or does not protect well esign and licences (like in China), then Rotem can produce a copy if they want but cannot sell to a country who respects Alstom licences.

Everything is open. I am not sour, I have two friends of Korean origin and discovered a bit of Korea throough them, I just wish Asian companies would make their own true original designs.

Last edited by Micrav; March 18th, 2009 at 11:04 AM.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 12:48 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
The maybe sad thing in this beautiful train is the way they used the DNA of TGV. It reminds me the old story of Japanese and Koreans, now Chinese copying european or American products (cars, motorbikes, mobile phones, etc. ) Don't they have any pride in creating something original coming from their guts? Not trying to create something original. I know it is a business strategy to copy, even correcting defaults or making better quality and cheaper. Now Honda makes their own original design, but Toyota still copies its rival (see new Avensis inspired by Mazda 6). Asian companies should throw their cameras, stop reading magazines away and start from white paper their new designs. There are excellent asian designers who can do much better than copying style or ideas. When I was at Berlin, I saw again a bunch of asian photographers taking pictures of every single detail of some trains (caught one taking pictures of door opening buttons in train toilets). What do you call this? Market study? Let me laugh. You visit such exhibition to get inspired and motivated, not to copy...

There is no global design or design for the world.
Design is made locally and adopted by the world or not.


If Asia would understand this, they would be much more creative and China would stop dumping crap toys and products in our markets. We love Asia, but not necessary Asian copies that gives us back a faded image of our products in the mirror

Look again front of TGV of Rotem, headlight scheme is inspired by Velaros...
They only thing I would understand is that Alstom gave a licence to Rotem and that Koreans adapted the design...

Or I wander if it is not a first generation TGV refurbishment... I know that SNCF sold some to LaPoste for example. Could be one explanation and smart move then...

The last reason I would understand is that Alstom did not deposited the licence in Korea or Korea did not accept licence of TGV or does not protect well esign and licences (like in China), then Rotem can produce a copy if they want but cannot sell to a country who respects Alstom licences.

Everything is open. I am not sour, I have two friends of Korean origin and discovered a bit of Korea throough them, I just wish Asian companies would make their own true original designs.

When you criticize something you have to do it with the firm proof, not with the firm faith. It's absolutely ok if you think it as a copy but you have to be careful when makeing a assumption. I can't understand how you think ROTEM can ignore Alstom's right. I don't have the details of what's licensed or not in KTX-II so you have any information or source then let me know.

And the ASIA things is totally derailed. If you think it copied TGV or, say, Velaro as you said, then stay on your rail.

The reason I said KTX-II had DNA of TGV is, when they made a contract Alstom agreed to transfer knowledge and technology to korea so that there're many aspects handed down from it with some exceptions.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 01:03 PM   #66
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One thing is for sure, trains does not sell because it's design is esthetic pleasing, it sells because it's functionality suits the needs of the buyer.
I am quite sure no train operator anywhere around the world is going to pay a high price just because it looks "cool".
Whether it looks like the TGV or not has nothing to do with the functionality of the KTX-II, let's not forget that.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 01:12 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riles28 View Post
Can Japanese Shinkansen are possible to run in Korail?
As far as I know no problem, except that :

1. many shinkansen series have witdth of 3,380mm and KTX 2,904mm so there can be some gaps on platform.

2. it's related to first problem, if 3,380mm width of shinkansen may be adopted, it may not be possible to run on conventional rail because of gaps on platform. Mini Shinkansen(2,945mm width) may have no problem.

This is what I know so you can correct me if there's wrong information.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 02:36 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
When you criticize something you have to do it with the firm proof, not with the firm faith. It's absolutely ok if you think it as a copy but you have to be careful when makeing a assumption. I can't understand how you think ROTEM can ignore Alstom's right. I don't have the details of what's licensed or not in KTX-II so you have any information or source then let me know.
I think that not knowing I was writing a few possibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
And the ASIA things is totally derailed. If you think it copied TGV or, say, Velaro as you said, then stay on your rail.

The reason I said KTX-II had DNA of TGV is, when they made a contract Alstom agreed to transfer knowledge and technology to korea so that there're many aspects handed down from it with some exceptions.
Then I agree completely and understand fully (was in my text). You say that here has been an agreement between Alstom and Rotem. This explains that

It is common to use car and train technology under contract. Design of KTX is beautiful, nothing to say about it!!! I just regret, and you can allow me this that Korean design is not very Korean style origin, Korean design cars, fridges, cell phones for "Western style" markets, often made by western designers by the way. It looks so European to me (even if it is good for my European colleagues who are not out of job...

Hyundai is changing now, but only recently. Design carries values behind a product, design is not only style. Style is only one function among others, the signature of the designer usually... I really like genuine design from Asia, but maybe I am one of the only (I really like what Mazda does for example, they don't look like any other car nowadays). Don't misunderstand me. I always promote authenticity.

In a very old book I found in a library, one of the first designers who could really bear this name due to his work (Henry van de Velde, created the first design schools in Germany before giving it to Walter Gropius in Weimar that lead to Bauhaus just before WW1, created La Cambre in Belgium, designed first Belgian electric train, houses, jewelry, etc. like it was common at that time), speaking about the column was saying this. More or less, from far memory: "For a building, if you use an ancient column, you need to understand the principle of the column and its ornaments. If you use fake or copy ancient columns nowadays to design a building, then you did not understand something the column." ndlr If the column is wrong, then the onee who makes fake columns for the house is fooling himself.

In this global world, I am pleading for local design that goes international. This is a question of roots. Korea has something genuine to say to the world through products like any other country does. China too. I am expecting true Chinese Design soon with their thousands of designers studying in newly opened schools all over China. I am expecting African product design one day, real Russian good design, etc.

So don't misunderstand me, be inspired by your own culture. This is what is great!

Ex. logo of Belgian Railway designed in 1926 and still in use today. Almost timeless design (doesn't it remind a bit Samsung logo? )
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Old March 19th, 2009, 01:00 PM   #69
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HEMU-400X looks like a completely indigenous design




I think it would be stupid not to copy when you are still in process of figuring out how to do thing. Else you would need to learn everything what lead to the final product by trial and error and would have repeated same research someone had done before you. Whereas you could just learn what others have done and hopefully make better products by yourself in the future.
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Old March 19th, 2009, 02:59 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
I think that not knowing I was writing a few possibilities.



Then I agree completely and understand fully (was in my text). You say that here has been an agreement between Alstom and Rotem. This explains that

It is common to use car and train technology under contract. Design of KTX is beautiful, nothing to say about it!!! I just regret, and you can allow me this that Korean design is not very Korean style origin, Korean design cars, fridges, cell phones for "Western style" markets, often made by western designers by the way. It looks so European to me (even if it is good for my European colleagues who are not out of job...

Hyundai is changing now, but only recently. Design carries values behind a product, design is not only style. Style is only one function among others, the signature of the designer usually... I really like genuine design from Asia, but maybe I am one of the only (I really like what Mazda does for example, they don't look like any other car nowadays). Don't misunderstand me. I always promote authenticity.

In a very old book I found in a library, one of the first designers who could really bear this name due to his work (Henry van de Velde, created the first design schools in Germany before giving it to Walter Gropius in Weimar that lead to Bauhaus just before WW1, created La Cambre in Belgium, designed first Belgian electric train, houses, jewelry, etc. like it was common at that time), speaking about the column was saying this. More or less, from far memory: "For a building, if you use an ancient column, you need to understand the principle of the column and its ornaments. If you use fake or copy ancient columns nowadays to design a building, then you did not understand something the column." ndlr If the column is wrong, then the onee who makes fake columns for the house is fooling himself.

In this global world, I am pleading for local design that goes international. This is a question of roots. Korea has something genuine to say to the world through products like any other country does. China too. I am expecting true Chinese Design soon with their thousands of designers studying in newly opened schools all over China. I am expecting African product design one day, real Russian good design, etc.

So don't misunderstand me, be inspired by your own culture. This is what is great!

Ex. logo of Belgian Railway designed in 1926 and still in use today. Almost timeless design (doesn't it remind a bit Samsung logo? )
As you said the originality is very important. I don't want to argue it.

The funny thing is ROTEM says they had tried to chase down korean originality or korean style in designing KTX-II. According to ROTEM when they designed the exterior they got inspiration from korean native fish, San-Cheon(cherry salmon) but I think it failed, considering you didn't seem to take any hints of it and for me it looks like an eel rather than salmon.

Last edited by ruready1000; March 19th, 2009 at 03:23 PM.
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Old March 19th, 2009, 03:22 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ruready1000 View Post
originality is very important.
To be honest, I seriously doubt this.

Being original makes one look unique and important and therefore feel good, but this is too childish to count when talking about multi-Bi$ projects. "As long as it (economically/efficiently) works" is important.

The definition of "original" is highly dubious to start with (most cars have 4 wheels? Doesn't look too original!) "Intellectual property" and not "originality" is what matters.
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Old March 20th, 2009, 09:41 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agaristagari View Post
HEMU-400X looks like a completely indigenous design
I like the style of this model

One thing I realized with those multimillion trains is that actually, you can very easily personalize fronts (the same for trams for example) and integrate this in the budget to sell the material, giving the needed touch to win the contest.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 08:55 PM   #73
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The locomotive looks like a mix of a ICE-3 and a TGV. Nice train though.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 07:28 PM   #74
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One thing I realized with those multimillion trains is that actually, you can very easily personalize fronts (the same for trams for example) and integrate this in the budget to sell the material, giving the needed touch to win the contest.
No you cant. Front of the train is important when it comes to aerodynamics which is especially important in high speed trains. Also as long as trains are controlled by meatbags you need to have at least mediocre visibility from cockpit. You can also affect how much noise train makes with the shape of front. Shape of front of the train is trade-off between different engineering goals rather than something to please your eyes. Where you could have room for personalization are color scheme of train and interiors of the train but those are quite often decided by customer rather than manufacturer .
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Old March 26th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #75
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No you cant. Front of the train is important when it comes to aerodynamics which is especially important in high speed trains. Also as long as trains are controlled by meatbags you need to have at least mediocre visibility from cockpit. You can also affect how much noise train makes with the shape of front. Shape of front of the train is trade-off between different engineering goals rather than something to please your eyes. Where you could have room for personalization are color scheme of train and interiors of the train but those are quite often decided by customer rather than manufacturer .
I don't see in what you say a reason that goes again what I said, customers like to have differents fronts depending on their requirements. It is also a marketing trick and it is not always the graphics only. Front is not only engineering and the result of noise and aerodynamics calculations. If you know a bit about design and engineering, from one common result or calcultation, you can have hundreds of different designs. But of course, for economics, it is better to produce only one of them and apply for differents customers. It is also cultural. In some countries, all houses look the same (Netherlands, UK, former soviet countries, etc. In other, all houses must be different from one another (Belgium is typical for that.)
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Old March 26th, 2009, 05:27 AM   #76
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The shape of the front of the train is related to what engineering goals are more important.

Look at Japan's trains. SUPER long front nose, because they're concerned about noise entering and exiting tunnels.

This brings up a different issue. Different cultures are good at different things. Japan has a group culture and they focus on continuous improvement. They didn't invent a lot of things as original concepts, but they took existing ideas and made them better. As a result, many "innovations" have come about... or in other words, new inventions.

This idea of continuous improvement in all areas was popularized by Toyota, if I'm not mistaken.

Whether Korea copies and improves or designs from scratch is yet to be seen. But both are worthy. It really has more to do with the culture's attitude towards risk-taking than anything else.

Of course, we have to be careful when we label things... myself included.
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Old March 28th, 2009, 01:05 AM   #77
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I don't see in what you say a reason that goes again what I said, customers like to have differents fronts depending on their requirements. It is also a marketing trick and it is not always the graphics only. Front is not only engineering and the result of noise and aerodynamics calculations. If you know a bit about design and engineering, from one common result or calcultation, you can have hundreds of different designs. But of course, for economics, it is better to produce only one of them and apply for differents customers. It is also cultural. In some countries, all houses look the same (Netherlands, UK, former soviet countries, etc. In other, all houses must be different from one another (Belgium is typical for that.)
When did you last time see person going to train store buying blue train made by famous train brand and designed by famous train designer. Then driving her/his train around the town and showing of her/his cool new train to her/his friends. After couple of years buying new even more cooler train ?
It is not a car it is a train. Consumers don't buy trains railway COMPANIES do. Company is concerned of trains operating cost ( more aerodynamic less money wasted to electricity bill ) , NIMBYs whining how noise is distracting their beaty sleeps , reliability etc. If the person/s who decided what rolling stock their company buys on basis of beautiness of the train then they are not doing their job. Punctuality and quality of service are far more important for imago of transportation company than outlook of their train. Trains are long term investments for companies usually at least 20 years which further puts pressure on making good decision or other you will live with your bad decision for long. Do you really think train which have "innovative" front design at expense of some more important features will sell more ? Besides you dont even necessarily see front at all when you are using the train. I dont see market for your trains with personalized fronts livery is enough for company to differentiate itself from its competitors ( which train companies dont always even have ).

Last edited by agaristagari; April 3rd, 2009 at 09:11 PM.
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Old April 1st, 2009, 04:17 PM   #78
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It's not related to KTX-II, but don't want to make another thread.

Cheonan-Asan station is the only station where you can see KTX passing station with almost full speed.






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Old April 2nd, 2009, 05:44 AM   #79
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That is awesome.
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 05:50 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Who cares if it looks like the TGV. Sounds like a lot of sour grapes here.
I don't like it. Metal wheels on two metal rails....




Kidding aside....this looks sweet. I like the look.
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