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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:14 PM   #221
Surel
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Point of views. In my opinion this society is just more materialist than in past, often based on "what you have" and not on "what you are"; just slaves of goverments that want us all the same and see us like a herd of sheeps, saying you even what you have to think and say in the name of a "political correctness"
So you would prefer to actually live in e.g. 15th century when majority of the population were literally slaves? The government allways sees its subjects as sort of sheep. The difference between past and now is that the government is formed not by few but by many and is quite limited in its actions by law. By the same law that you criticize. Exactly due to the laws that bind us to certain conducts.

There is huge difference between regulation, law and dictatorship. You are puting an equal sign in between which is wrong. No regulation lands like e.g. Somalia are great examples of the rule of power (thats sort of natural regulation if you like) and in fact the country is formed by small dictatorships, just like as the early mediavel Europe. On the other side countries like North Korea are full with laws and regulation (many of which are again sort of shadowy unwritten), but their purpose is not to provide the society with some framework, but to sustain and support the ruling hegemony.

Thus as you can notice, it is very important to distinguish to whom the laws and regulation serves. In general, laws that serve only to the tiny fraction of population are contraproductive, backwards and destabilizing.

The assumptions that no laws and regulation on the road would actually provide better driving experience for everyone are faultly and equaled to assumptions that society without e.g. constitution would be better than a society with it. No, it wouldn't, it would be masacre.

Seemingly "no regulation" situations can exists in very small groups. The point is that very small group evolves its own unwritten code of conduct which it keeps to. The misbehaveour is recognized very fast and punished severly very fast.

I understand that it seems not very attractive having to bow ones head and accept certain code of conduct. The prospect of not obeying and getting more personal profit is very strong and actually purpoted by the general popular culture. Not obeying makes sence when there is clear unjustice going on, because yes, in this case not obeying directs into the abolishing of the unjustice and improving ones situation. However, not obeying to generally accepted principles may bring in short term personal profit, but in most of the times worsening of ones situation and also worsening the situation of the whole society.

The history of the human race is a history of cooperation versus parasiting on that cooperation. It only depends on which side one want to stay. Just note that parasite cannot survive without a host and cannot parasite on another parasite. Thus population of parasites is directed to extiction, whereas cooperating population will thrive. The problem of every population though is that parasites that dont respect the rules allways emerge. Maybe it brings some evolutionary advantage... who knows.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:14 PM   #222
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I wouldn't buy food without that. But we're drifting away from the topic.
Have you never bought fresh food from a farmer's market ?
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:16 PM   #223
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And that summs it up. THAT is my main complaint. It also goes much further than just driving. Warning labels, labels on food etcetc. Regulations where you look and I always wonder, "My God, how did we survive all these millenia without ? O_o"
Wanna compare death rates today and two thousand years ago?
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #224
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Have you never bought fresh food from a farmer's market ?
Yes, and in Italy they have to clearly state where and when they are grown/fished/butchered.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:18 PM   #225
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The problem of every population though is that parasites that dont respect the rules allways emerge. Maybe it brings some evolutionary advantage... who knows.
I agree with most of your points. The real problem however is that a growing number of people feel that those regulations aren't made for the benefit of all of us but to sustain those who are buddy buddy with politicians.

When a community places speed traps (after artificially reducing the posted limit) on 4 lane through roads instead in front of schools then you know something is terribly wrong.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #226
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Have you never bought fresh food from a farmer's market ?
Only fruits and vegetables. I wouldn't buy meat without a label (unless I bought it from a friend).
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #227
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Wanna compare death rates today and two thousand years ago?
Well, there were probably less deaths caused by reasons of people's stupidity than today and way more by war and execution. Your point is ?
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #228
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I partly agree. Of course, due to the (more or less working) rule of law we do live much better and more safe than a century ago. But, in order to achieve that, is it really necessary to over regulate ?

I mean, I'm a convinced European and I think that the many states of Europe growing together is a great thing after all those centuries of being at each other's throats, usually at the whim of some noble blue-blooded bastard or (in more recent times) at the call of some Austrian with a funny moustache. BUT to get there, is it really necessary to regulate by law the size of bananas ? I think not...

Or, different example. In recent times (the last 2 years) 3 different family breweries from around here, who each have been in business for several centuries had to be closed down because in order to keep running they had to invest over 100000 EUR each, not because their equipment was broken but because their equipment did not comply with EU regulations and thus went out of business.

In the end all these regulations which supposedly make us all safe and healthy will decimate the variety of life and will leave us with nothing but mediocracy.

Sorry for going so completely off topic by now I'm just trying to explain the motivation behind my somewhat controversial (to some at least) opinion.
There certainly exists ridiculous regulations. The point is, that whenever there is a regulation to be made or abolished you should be looking at QUI BONO... those people that profit from certain regulation the most are most likely also behind it. So if there is regulation that gets small family breweries out of business I would expect it is becuase there is big business behind this... e.g.


When the food labels were already mentioned I could mention also very strict food legal standards that were in power in e.g. communist Czechoslovakia but had to be abolished in order to be accepted by the "free markets". In the end everything boils down to do fact of strengt and influence.

But to stay on roads, this whole is applicable to the traffic regulations, norms, standards etc. Let it be car making industry, or safety road features.

Last edited by Surel; June 13th, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:31 PM   #229
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Well, there were probably less deaths caused by reasons of people's stupidity than today and way more by war and execution. Your point is ?
I haven't got the statistics in front of me, but the amount of people getting killed on the roads are definitely dropping, as it has done for decades...
Don't get me wrong, I find some of the downgradings as ridiculous as you do, but I agree with crack-downs on accidents...
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #230
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There certainly exists ridiculous regulations. The point is, that whenever there is a regulation to be made or abolished you should be looking at QUI BONO...
I know... And our politicians who supposedly are making decisions for the good of all of us stand around with their dicks in their hands (bad) or let themselves bribe by lobbyists into going along (worse) and we, the people get to suffer the consequences. Doesn't that make you want to throw up your hands and scream in frustration ? It certainly does that to me...
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #231
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I haven't got the statistics in front of me, but the amount of people getting killed on the roads are definitely dropping, as it has done for decades...
Don't get me wrong, I find some of the downgradings as ridiculous as you do, but I agree with crack-downs on accidents...
As do I. Accidents cause traffic jams. Traffic jams cause annoyance to me. But limits are no replacement for applied intelligence or vice versa, if someone is an idiot no limit is going to fix that.

When I went to work this morning someone had just managed to pile his car on top of a guard rail right in the exit of the Autobahn. I don't know just how the guy did that but I'm pretty sure that it had to do with slipping on wet asphalt (it had been raining for some time) and the exit is a (not exactly sharp) 90 ° right turn. Must've been too fast. But was the reason speed or idiocy ? Do we need a limit there now ?

http://maps.google.de/maps?hl=de&ll=...13711&t=h&z=16

Last edited by Stahlsturm; June 13th, 2012 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Added link
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:40 PM   #232
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Only fruits and vegetables. I wouldn't buy meat without a label (unless I bought it from a friend).
Yeah, with raw meat I'd be careful too but I have bought many a salami on italian, french or spanish markets over the past 25 years and I'm still alive. I don't think we need a law from Brussles exactly regulating how long and how thick the sausage has to be, or do we ?
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #233
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A combination of speed, stupidness and a wrong view of the situation perhaps. There is a Mr Bean in all of us, and no authority or God or Allah can do anything about that...
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #234
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Only fruits and vegetables. I wouldn't buy meat without a label (unless I bought it from a friend).
Yeah. Notice, how you implicitely assume that the label on that package actually contains right information. That is vital, because what you don't know what is it you are buying, you dont have any way how to find out, unless you inspected the whole process of getting that piece of meat into the shelfs, which is absurd.

Thus, your ability to buy is based on the trust in the seller. If there would not be any regulation, you wouldnt have any guarantee that you are actually buying what you are thinking you are buying. The whole business would not be possible and everyone would be worse off. This whole is thus only possible because of trust that is between the buyer and the seller. This trust is guaranteed by the punishment implied by the law. The law should create such a sanctions and control mechanisms that the seller is not tempted to cheat on you in what he puts on the label (or in the package) because it would be to him more costly than the profit he would made by cheating. Sure, the whole thing could also be different. You would have your private lab where you would examine the food you buy. But this arrangement would be terribly ineffective.

This trust could be created e.g. in a small community where you get your daily groceries from you neigbours garden and in return you provide him with the meat from your pigs. The trust would be created by the fact, that you both know that you depend on each other for the life. In modern society this is not possible. The more productive society cannot offer such arrangement. It has to be institutionalized.


The same logic applies to the roads. A driver on a road has to have certain trust to the other drivers, that they will behave in a way that doesnt endanger him and that allows comfortable using of the infrustructure. The only way how you can establish such a trust are sever sanctions for misbehaviour, which make it clear for everyone that if he doesnt adhere to the rules he would be worse off. Such arrangement persuades you that others behave in appropriate way and thus you dont need to worry using the infrustructure. It makes using the infrustructure possible without much additional costs on your side (e.g. buying huge tanks and drive them to feel safe, etc) similarly to the food example.


In both cases the regulation actually makes the innovation (infrastructure or supermarket) feasible.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:51 PM   #235
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I don't think we need a law from Brussles exactly regulating how long and how thick the sausage has to be, or do we ?
There's no regulation from Brussels about that. And I never said I agreed with regulations about cucumbers having to be straight (which is for easier transportation, btw).
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:53 PM   #236
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So you would prefer to actually live in e.g. 15th century when majority of the population were literally slaves? The government allways sees its subjects as sort of sheep. The difference between past and now is that the government is formed not by few but by many and is quite limited in its actions by law. By the same law that you criticize. Exactly due to the laws that bind us to certain conducts.

There is huge difference between regulation, law and dictatorship. You are puting an equal sign in between which is wrong. No regulation lands like e.g. Somalia are great examples of the rule of power (thats sort of natural regulation if you like) and in fact the country is formed by small dictatorships, just like as the early mediavel Europe. On the other side countries like North Korea are full with laws and regulation (many of which are again sort of shadowy unwritten), but their purpose is not to provide the society with some framework, but to sustain and support the ruling hegemony.

Thus as you can notice, it is very important to distinguish to whom the laws and regulation serves. In general, laws that serve only to the tiny fraction of population are contraproductive, backwards and destabilizing.

The assumptions that no laws and regulation on the road would actually provide better driving experience for everyone are faultly and equaled to assumptions that society without e.g. constitution would be better than a society with it. No, it wouldn't, it would be masacre.

Seemingly "no regulation" situations can exists in very small groups. The point is that very small group evolves its own unwritten code of conduct which it keeps to. The misbehaveour is recognized very fast and punished severly very fast.

I understand that it seems not very attractive having to bow ones head and accept certain code of conduct. The prospect of not obeying and getting more personal profit is very strong and actually purpoted by the general popular culture. Not obeying makes sence when there is clear unjustice going on, because yes, in this case not obeying directs into the abolishing of the unjustice and improving ones situation. However, not obeying to generally accepted principles may bring in short term personal profit, but in most of the times worsening of ones situation and also worsening the situation of the whole society.

The history of the human race is a history of cooperation versus parasiting on that cooperation. It only depends on which side one want to stay. Just note that parasite cannot survive without a host and cannot parasite on another parasite. Thus population of parasites is directed to extiction, whereas cooperating population will thrive. The problem of every population though is that parasites that dont respect the rules allways emerge. Maybe it brings some evolutionary advantage... who knows.
I have to say that living in the 15th would have its charm, certainly it would have positive and negative things. Some valors that there were at that time now they are gone and this is bad. About your sentence "government is formed not by few but by many and is quite limited in its actions by law. By the same law that you criticize" makes me understand you not live in Italy ...here government change laws as it want, is enough to see that we have a prime minister that nobody elected, old ministers that made laws to save own ass, judges that should be guarantors of the law but they use it according their own mood and so on, i could continue all day long.

Back to the topic about road, I'm fully convinced that no regulations on road would be better cause you obligate drivers to take much attention while driving and this is showed in those cities where they experiment the "shared spaces" project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space. This experiment showed that drivers can regulate themselves in abscence of signs better than when there were traffic lights and signals. You said that it would be a massacre a road without regulation; statistics in these towns where the road is not regulated by any law give you not right
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #237
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Well, there were probably less deaths caused by reasons of people's stupidity than today and way more by war and execution. Your point is ?
My point is "how did we survive these millennia without" is one of the most nonsensical statements ever. Whose answer is "Worse than with".
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:56 PM   #238
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There's no regulation from Brussels about that. And I never said I agreed with regulations about cucumbers having to be straight (which is for easier transportation, btw).
I was asking a rethorical question, hence the wording and smiley I in no way meant to imply you agreed with such regulations.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:56 PM   #239
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I have to say that living in the 15th would have its charm
I seriously doubt.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #240
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I know... And our politicians who supposedly are making decisions for the good of all of us stand around with their dicks in their hands (bad) or let themselves bribe by lobbyists into going along (worse) and we, the people get to suffer the consequences. Doesn't that make you want to throw up your hands and scream in frustration ? It certainly does that to me...
It makes me want to do things... .

But the point is that we as humanity are on a good way. This was much worse in the past wherever you look. And good laws and regulation that bring us certain institutions are the most important factor in why it got better.
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