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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #241
Stahlsturm
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
I have to say that living in the 15th would have its charm
"Dark Medieval Times", hum ?
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #242
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It makes me want to do things... .

But the point is that we as humanity are on a good way. This was much worse in the past wherever you look. And good laws and regulation that bring us certain institutions are the most important factor in why it got better.
So you think it is just my individual perception that I feel that while in general I (of course) agree with the rule of law and profit from it a great deal, I also feel that in recent years (say, since the mid 90s) many regulations are made with ulterior (and sometimes outright nefarious) intent and are in no way helping our society to become a better society ?

Maybe I'm just getting paranoid then... *sighs*
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
My point is "how did we survive these millennia without" is one of the most nonsensical statements ever. Whose answer is "Worse than with".
You may want to re-read what I wrote in context
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
I have to say that living in the 15th would have its charm, certainly it would have positive and negative things. Some valors that there were at that time now they are gone and this is bad. About your sentence "government is formed not by few but by many and is quite limited in its actions by law. By the same law that you criticize" makes me understand you not live in Italy ...here government change laws as it want, is enough to see that we have a prime minister that nobody elected, old ministers that made laws to save own ass, judges that should be guarantors of the law but they use it according their own mood and so on, i could continue all day long.

Back to the topic about road, I'm fully convinced that no regulations on road would be better cause you obligate drivers to take much attention while driving and this is showed in those cities where they experiment the "shared spaces" project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space. This experiment showed that drivers can regulate themselves in abscence of signs better than when there were traffic lights and signals. You said that it would be a massacre a road without regulation; statistics in these towns where the road is not regulated by any law give you not right
1) I aggree, it could have been very charming for Venetian nobility, for someone else it had been very short miserable living.

2) I dont live in Italy. But your point is No regulation better than regulation. I tell you: because of good regulation you have at least what you have. Without it you would not have Italian government, but Somalian gov??? And moreover. Because of the regulation you have, the italian public has a much bigger chance than the somalian public to actually make it even better.

3) There is no village without any traffic regulation. In those villages they reduced the traffic signs etc, but they did not offer no speed limit, they did not cancel right hand rules, roundabout rules. They did not cancel general responsibility principles. Etc. etc. So what you are saying is that they just implemented different set of rules... Which is in no way in contradiction with what I say. The change or rules makes progress possible. Clearly there is not really a state when we could say. Now we have the finite set of rules and it cannot get any better than that... The rules are subject to constant refining. This is called institutionall progress.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #245
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Though I frankly think we live quantifiably better now than ever in human history, I have to say that over-regulation has gone totally out of control. To get back to topic, in Spanish motorway exits you get first a 100 km/h sign, then a 80 km/h one, then 60 and finally 40 km/h if it ends at a roundabout. Plus, the 40 km/h is usually miles before the roundabout. No one observes these rules, but if there is a police check, they will ticket people for speeding. I mean, probably not for doing 60 km/h, but if you do 80 km/h, you will get one huge fine. We Spanish just copy the French mentality of regulating every single thing on the known universe, but at a smaller budget, so it goes horribly wrong.

In Germany or the UK, at motorway exits you get no speed limit signs. Just an "end of motorway" one when the sliproad meets another road. And the result is the same (I mean, people drive the same speed), but with the difference that nobody will be ticketed for driving responsibly yet out of the (absurd) rules.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #246
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I seriously doubt.
I'm metaller, 15th century atmosphere would be home sweet home. Dark Medieval times as Surel said
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
So you think it is just my individual perception that I feel that while in general I (of course) agree with the rule of law and profit from it a great deal, I also feel that in recent years (say, since the mid 90s) many regulations are made with ulterior (and sometimes outright nefarious) intent and are in no way helping our society to become a better society ?

Maybe I'm just getting paranoid then... *sighs*
I think that since of 90s there are indeed quite important changes in the society, institutional setup. Especially in the Europe. Some are for good some are for bad.

I would furthermore only speculate.

First, of all there are many economical implications of certain facts (raw materials, globalisation, not continuous science progress, huge productivity changes) that in order cause social changes. That happened allways and has to do that progress doesnt evolve quite in a straight line.

Second, my speculation goes on, that lots of the socioeconomical changes in the western europe have to do with the fall of communism and the prospective extinction of the enemy (or just simply braking mechanism in the nature of fear from it - from a societal clash) to the free capitalist society which seemed to be for some time unleashed from the chains...


Now I am getting worried that this discussion will be deleted by some mod, which I would be sorry and personally would find stupid of me to write so much text here, when I am aware of this danger, which is in fact regulation imposed on this forum... lol...and which should prevent me from writing in the first place... lol.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Though I frankly think we live quantifiably better now than ever in human history, I have to say that over-regulation has gone totally out of control. To get back to topic, in Spanish motorway exits you get first a 100 km/h sign, then a 80 km/h one, then 60 and finally 40 km/h if it ends at a roundabout. Plus, the 40 km/h is usually miles before the roundabout. No one observes these rules, but if there is a police check, they will ticket people for speeding. I mean, probably not for doing 60 km/h, but if you do 80 km/h, you will get one huge fine. We Spanish just copy the French mentality of regulating every single thing on the known universe, but at a smaller budget, so it goes horribly wrong.

In Germany or the UK, at motorway exits you get no speed limit signs. Just an "end of motorway" one when the sliproad meets another road. And the result is the same (I mean, people drive the same speed), but with the difference that nobody will be ticketed for driving responsibly yet out of the (absurd) rules.
Yes, in Austria when the National road comes to a roundabout, there is usually a maximum speed sign of 50 km/h. In the UK you can go over roundabouts at 60 mph (95 km/h). If you dare!

And I have seen roundabouts in the UK, with signs in front telling people to slow down to 50 mph...
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by verreme View Post
In Germany or the UK, at motorway exits you get no speed limit signs. Just an "end of motorway" one when the sliproad meets another road. And the result is the same (I mean, people drive the same speed), but with the difference that nobody will be ticketed for driving responsibly yet out of the (absurd) rules.
Sometimes we do here in Germany but it's mostly within reason.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Dark Medieval times as Surel said
T'was me... :P
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #251
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I'm metaller, 15th century atmosphere would be home sweet home. Dark Medieval times as Surel said
Most probably you would have been alrady dead by now (by your age), if you were born in the 15th century.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
I'm metaller, 15th century atmosphere would be home sweet home. Dark Medieval times as Surel said
There is something with Germans and heavy metal. Do you have 666 on your plates as well?

Coming to think of it, there is also something with Germans and on tour. Everywhere you look there a stickers and labels and markings on German cars with: Metal on Tour
Manfred and Helmut on Tour
Cats and dogs on Tour...

Everything and everybody is "On Tour" in Zjermanie...
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I think that since of 90s there are indeed quite important changes in the society, institutional setup. Especially in the Europe. Some are for good some are for bad.
So I'm not paranoid then


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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Now I am getting worried that this discussion will be deleted by some mod, which I would be sorry and personally would find stupid of me to write so much text here, when I am aware of this danger, which is in fact regulation imposed on this forum... lol...and which should prevent me from writing in the first place... lol.
That would suck. Even though it's rather off topic by now it still comes back to traffic rules on occasion though
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:26 PM   #254
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There is something with Germans and heavy metal. Do you have 666 on your plates as well?
Don't know about Satyricon84 but I do, hahaha. I also drive a black Alfa... The official colour description is "Metallo Nero"... Black Metal, hahaha.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #255
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1) I aggree, it could have been very charming for Venetian nobility, for someone else it had been very short miserable living.

2) I dont live in Italy. But your point is No regulation better than regulation. I tell you: because of good regulation you have at least what you have. Without it you would not have Italian government, but Somalian gov??? And moreover. Because of the regulation you have, the italian public has a much bigger chance than the somalian public to actually make it even better.

3) There is no village without any traffic regulation. In those villages they reduced the traffic signs etc, but they did not offer no speed limit, they did not cancel right hand rules, roundabout rules. They did not cancel general responsibility principles. Etc. etc. So what you are saying is that they just implemented different set of rules... Which is in no way in contradiction with what I say. The change or rules makes progress possible. Clearly there is not really a state when we could say. Now we have the finite set of rules and it cannot get any better than that... The rules are subject to constant refining. This is called institutionall progress.
I'm not talking of no regulations in a way of complete anarchy, but regulation written by the good sense that most of people have (who doesn't have good sense won't be stopped neither by written laws). Talking about governments would be a very complex argument and too much offtopic, speaking about it concerning roads, giving the right, roundabout rules, etc are set by the good sense of driving... a sort of "10 commandments" for the driver. All the rest for me should be just indicative and not a rule according to own conscience and skills. We don't need a rule to know that you can't drive 100Km/h into a town cause there are people and you can kill somebody besides yourself or park the car in the middle of way.... if somebody does such things is simply stupid, with or without laws.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
Don't know about Satyricon84 but I do, hahaha. I also drive a black Alfa... The official colour description is "Metallo Nero"... Black Metal, hahaha.
Yes, sorry I did mean you. Not Satyricon, I think he is Italian...
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
There is something with Germans and heavy metal. Do you have 666 on your plates as well?

Coming to think of it, there is also something with Germans and on tour. Everywhere you look there a stickers and labels and markings on German cars with: Metal on Tour
Manfred and Helmut on Tour
Cats and dogs on Tour...

Everything and everybody is "On Tour" in Zjermanie...
I'm not german and my license plate is italian registration
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #258
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T'was me... :P
Maybe you go/went to SummerBreeze or Wacken too?
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #259
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I'm not german and my license plate is italian registration
Yes, see my post above yours.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:34 PM   #260
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Most probably you would have been alrady dead by now (by your age), if you were born in the 15th century.
Well, as the proverb says "better to live a day as lion than 100 as sheep". Just the end is the same for everybody so what makes the difference, is what your did when you were alive
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