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Old February 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM   #15961
KLynch
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Now that the height and location of Exelon is decided, I guess arguing about mass transit will take back over center stage.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 01:38 AM   #15962
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Originally Posted by k25150 View Post
... People love their cars and will always love their cars. ...
It's beyond love. People have built their lives around cars. Cars are the office away from the office, the locker to store sports equipment between games, the taxi for the various kids and elderly in their lives and -- unfortunately for more than a few people -- home when there is no home.

There're even a whole nest of non-profits dedicated to making cars available for poor people. Even the Abell Foundation helped out with this.

I like mass transit and believe there's a conservative case to be made for it.

But if the argument for mass transit in any way involves making car ownership more expensive or more of a hassle than it already is (e.g. the Circulator being funded by an additional fee on people using city parking garages, which is really obnoxious) most people are going to respond like k and move to places where they can own a car and not get screwed for using it.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 03:58 AM   #15963
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Yup.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 04:23 AM   #15964
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I believe that if they find a way to diverse the population more along the tracks then maybe, just maybe the stations could become busier. I rode the metro (or whatever its called in Baltimore) and it felt pathetic to me, not the infrastructure or atmosphere but the lack of ridership. It's not like Maryland cant allocate the funds to build more lines; its just the one question will residents ride it?

Recently I've been studying the history of SanFran. and it's pretty interesting to see how bad off they were at one point (but they were making wonderful music during this period as well), now they have a Union Square which is among the most upscale areas in the world. If they can make a transition into the city they are today; I'm positive Baltimore can as well. We have just as many valuable assets as they do although we may never be on their level. If Baltimore would have gotten its act together a while ago, I would have said "dont build all the upscale stores in Towson, but rather somewhere near Federal Hill".

I would start by cutting taxes (not just in Baltimore but statewide because excuse my language but us losing a lot of business to VA isn't making any damn sense ,
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 12:36 PM   #15965
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Plain and simple: people will only ride mass transit if it makes their trip more convenient -- be it they arrive at their destination faster or cheaper.

In the long run (50-100 years) the market will decide if mass transit (rail) becomes the primary mode of transportation once again. Government should keep its nose out of it; when policy and laws begin to manipulate where and how people live, then we have obviously compromised our freedoms.

While there are exceptions, currently much of the "transit oriented development" we see is more of a fad -- a trendy thing to do -- rather than real sustainable development.

If the public chooses to embrace such development, fine. It's their choice. But the government should not make it a policy to force all the "square pegs" into the "round holes."
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 02:03 PM   #15966
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Quote:
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Plain and simple: people will only ride mass transit if it makes their trip more convenient -- be it they arrive at their destination faster or cheaper.

In the long run (50-100 years) the market will decide if mass transit (rail) becomes the primary mode of transportation once again. Government should keep its nose out of it; when policy and laws begin to manipulate where and how people live, then we have obviously compromised our freedoms.

While there are exceptions, currently much of the "transit oriented development" we see is more of a fad -- a trendy thing to do -- rather than real sustainable development.

If the public chooses to embrace such development, fine. It's their choice. But the government should not make it a policy to force all the "square pegs" into the "round holes."
Then I suppose government should keep its nose out of the road business too. Lets level the playing field. No more Intercounty Connectors. No more widening of existing roads. Then, let the people decide when every major road becomes a parking lot 24/7.

The fact is the car is so popular because government made it that way by providing cheap gas and building free infrastructure.

Before government became involved in the road business, mass transit was the predominate mode of transportation and MOST MASS TRANSIT IN THE COUNTRY WAS RUN BY PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Remember the privately owned Baltimore Transit Company which ran the street car system here? Government killed that when the citizens used all the subsidized gas and free infrastructure instead of the streetcars. Furthermore, the large increase of cars on city streets clogged the streetcar rails so much that the level of mass transit service actually went down.

In the spirit of debate, I say this. All the republican free market capitalists here should be on mass transit's side because it was once, and could be again, privately run. Oh, but I forgot. That would effect YOUR entitlement and everyone knows that your own personal entitlement isn't an entitlement at all. That word should just be reserved for welfare mothers and programs for the poor!

Last edited by 30 Floors Up; February 3rd, 2012 at 02:24 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 02:36 PM   #15967
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Quote:
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I'm confused again. Morton's, the restaurant in the Sheraton Inner Harbor, is about to renovate.

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...use-plans.html

Isn't this the same Sheraton that is going to be demolished for a new converntion center/arena? Why renovate something that is going to be demolished? Or is it?
~~~~~

All construction has stopped on the burned out shell of a building on Baltimore Street that lit up the sky a year ago. A new "For Sale" sign has gone up.
agreed...

frankly, I don't see this new hotel/arena being built for another 5 years or so, but I'm with you on this point. To build/add anything to this site right now is pointless...
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Last edited by rockin'.baltimorean; February 3rd, 2012 at 02:41 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 03:05 PM   #15968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Then I suppose government should keep its nose out of the road business too. Lets level the playing field. No more Intercounty Connectors. No more widening of existing roads. Then, let the people decide when every major road becomes a parking lot 24/7.

The fact is the car is so popular because government made it that way by providing cheap gas and building free infrastructure.

Before government became involved in the road business, mass transit was the predominate mode of transportation and MOST MASS TRANSIT IN THE COUNTRY WAS RUN BY PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Remember the privately owned Baltimore Transit Company which ran the street car system here? Government killed that when the citizens used all the subsidized gas and free infrastructure instead of the streetcars. Furthermore, the large increase of cars on city streets clogged the streetcar rails so much that the level of mass transit service actually went down.

In the spirit of debate, I say this. All the republican free market capitalists here should be on mass transit's side because it was once, and could be again, privately run. Oh, but I forgot. That would effect YOUR entitlement and everyone knows that your own personal entitlement isn't an entitlement at all. That word should just be reserved for welfare mothers and programs for the poor!
I second this.

To K...you should ride the light rail at 5PM any day. It's usually pretty packed anywhere close to downtown. The MARC lines are bursting at the seems (which is why they're doing a major upgrade). Penn Station is the 8th busiest station in the country, and I believe BWI is #9. Baltimore is quickly becoming a major mass transit player...let's build a system to match.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 03:21 PM   #15969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Then I suppose government should keep its nose out of the road business too. Lets level the playing field. No more Intercounty Connectors. No more widening of existing roads. Then, let the people decide when every major road becomes a parking lot 24/7.

The fact is the car is so popular because government made it that way by providing cheap gas and building free infrastructure.

Before government became involved in the road business, mass transit was the predominate mode of transportation and MOST MASS TRANSIT IN THE COUNTRY WAS RUN BY PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Remember the privately owned Baltimore Transit Company which ran the street car system here? Government killed that when the citizens used all the subsidized gas and free infrastructure instead of the streetcars. Furthermore, the large increase of cars on city streets clogged the streetcar rails so much that the level of mass transit service actually went down.

In the spirit of debate, I say this. All the republican free market capitalists here should be on mass transit's side because it was once, and could be again, privately run. Oh, but I forgot. That would effect YOUR entitlement and everyone knows that your own personal entitlement isn't an entitlement at all. That word should just be reserved for welfare mothers and programs for the poor!
Agreed. Rail technology allows us to transport people and goods faster and less expensively, and, in many cases, more efficiently, than private vehicle transportation. Road construction and maintenance, parking, oil exploration and production, automotive research and development, and externalities, such as pollution cleanup and healthcare costs, are all subsidized. Gas taxes do not cover the costs of gas; tolls and registrations do not cover the costs of roads. The difference comes from general revenue dollars paid out of income, sales, and property taxes. If there were a level playing field, the market would absolutely decide in favor of higher mass transit use.

We can talk about whether it is worthwhile to subsidize our auto-centric culture because we value it, but you do not get to hide behind the false statement that the costs of mass transit are prohibitive. Simply, it is not true. Subsidizing our car culture is one of the greatest expenditure items on the national balance sheet.

And k, on the subject of borrowing money from China to build transit, that is exactly what Los Angeles has proposed doing if America Fast Forward does not pass. To the tune of $40 billion, LA would seek private equity in China to fund its metro expansion. http://la.streetsblog.org/2012/01/30...ce-and-plan-b/

Also, that is the first I’ve heard anyone argue that road construction is a federal power but rail construction is not. How does that work?
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 04:01 PM   #15970
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M on Madison has completed the fourth floor. I thought it was supposed to be five stories, but it looks like it may have topped out.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 04:22 PM   #15971
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Where is the demand or outcry for new trains around here besides this forum and maybe some poor without cars? Many poor in America have cars and have HD TV's too so I don't think the poor are demanding this either.

People love their cars and will always love their cars. People feel safe in their cars. Just because you guys hate all things suburbia doesn't mean everyone else does.

Let's see, should I take my new car from Canton to Catonsville or ride a dirty old bus loaded with punk kids that stops every mile? How about that brand new train then? Well the nanny government pays for it even though we tax payers can't afford it and didn't ask for it, but that too might have the punk kids on it plus I'll have to wait at the station and call a cab on the other end. I think I'll just drive.
You obviously don't ride the bus very often.

I find it funny and ironic how you're as blindly against mass transit and the people who use it (as well as blindly ignorant about it) as the people you accuse of being anti-suburbs. Fight fire with fire, I guess.

Actually, not everyone who is pro-transit hates the suburbs. I live in Frederick Co. for crying out loud...and I love it. I enjoy driving to a parking lot in the county, parking my car in a free and safe place, and taking a train (or bus) to the hustle and bustle of the city. It's cheaper, and many times, it's easier and faster than driving.

But whatever. You've got your beliefs and you're going to stick with them no matter how far from reality they are. Oh and good luck parking in Canton and keeping that new car looking new.

Last edited by Mirage52; February 3rd, 2012 at 06:44 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 04:53 PM   #15972
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The cost of parking

Roads and cars also require parking on both ends of the trip. Somebody pays for the parking, which seems to rarely come up in the transit vs. road conversation. Parking garages and parking lots have to be paid for by government or the consumer or the private industry. Regardless, it is not free. Transit to our downtown, stadium, hospitals, convention centers, retail areas and so forth frees businesses, government, and residential developers from the cost of building so much parking. In turn, it leads to less road congestion and if aesthetics matter, less ugly garages and parking lots.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 05:59 PM   #15973
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Red Line Now PAC has updated their website...looks nicer.

http://red-line-now.com/
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 06:17 PM   #15974
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The only time the light rail is busy is during Raven's games.
From personal experience, I can tell you this statement is not true.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 06:50 PM   #15975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Then I suppose government should keep its nose out of the road business too. Lets level the playing field. No more Intercounty Connectors. No more widening of existing roads. Then, let the people decide when every major road becomes a parking lot 24/7.

The fact is the car is so popular because government made it that way by providing cheap gas and building free infrastructure.

Before government became involved in the road business, mass transit was the predominate mode of transportation and MOST MASS TRANSIT IN THE COUNTRY WAS RUN BY PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Remember the privately owned Baltimore Transit Company which ran the street car system here? Government killed that when the citizens used all the subsidized gas and free infrastructure instead of the streetcars. Furthermore, the large increase of cars on city streets clogged the streetcar rails so much that the level of mass transit service actually went down.

In the spirit of debate, I say this. All the republican free market capitalists here should be on mass transit's side because it was once, and could be again, privately run. Oh, but I forgot. That would effect YOUR entitlement and everyone knows that your own personal entitlement isn't an entitlement at all. That word should just be reserved for welfare mothers and programs for the poor!
Very well said. I also want to add that the government doesn’t have to make car ownership more expensive, it just needs to stop subsidizing it and it will turn out to be much more expensive. There are also many external costs caused by the car as well that are hard to compute but need to be factored into the analysis.

• Loss of human life; from the times - An estimated 32788 people were killed in traffic accidents in 2010. Deaths on light, heavy and commuter rail was 253. Can’t really put a number on that.
• Pollution generated by the vehicles themselves.
• Traffic and DWI enforcement and litigation.
• Car insurance. What a waste, how about a few billions being spend on research and development rather than protecting motorist from suing each other?
• Ambulance chaser car crash lawyers.
• Operation and maintenance of the road system. Besides the obvious such a repaving and repairing bridges, thing about the money and energy and time it takes to manage the traffic and street light systems. Trying to manage the behavior of individuals on the road is infinitely more expensive and complex than keeping trains running safely.
• Some would even say our presence in the Middle East is about the stability of our oil supply to feed our car habit. I am not debating if this is correct or not, but if it is, it’s a huge external cost to use in the form of military action and diplomatic efforts (foreign aid) to keep the flow going.

I think the fact is that the car has become an expensive necessity in our society and it has been a huge reason for loss in our standing as the world’s more powerful nation. Eliminating waste makes sense in business, so why is waste (in the form of time, energy, land our environment) resulting in our car based OK? What would society look like if we use all of that wasted time commuting, and money spent on this expensive mode of transportation on innovation and research and educating etc. I am not anti-car at all. I own one and I love it. If you want to own a car, then go for it! But pay your fair share of the real cost to everyone, and don’t ask me to subsidize your preference.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 06:56 PM   #15976
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25th station will move forward

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...ion-paves.html
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 06:57 PM   #15977
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Quote:
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M on Madison has completed the fourth floor. I thought it was supposed to be five stories, but it looks like it may have topped out.


I thought this tower was supposed to be six floors? According to this picture, it looks like six floors.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 07:41 PM   #15978
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In another Westside note, I noticed in today's Business Journal that a $3 million building permit has been issued for 200 W. Saratoga to convert it to a hotel. It looks like this story was completely ignored by our local media, but I did dig up this article from 2007:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...leep-inn-patel

If this is the same buiding, looks like we're getting a Red Roof Inn. Personally, I've always loved this building and that particular block of Saratoga Street.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 07:51 PM   #15979
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Quote:
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In another Westside note, I noticed in today's Business Journal that a $3 million building permit has been issued for 200 W. Saratoga to convert it to a hotel. It looks like this story was completely ignored by our local media, but I did dig up this article from 2007:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...leep-inn-patel

If this is the same buiding, looks like we're getting a Red Roof Inn. Personally, I've always loved this building and that particular block of Saratoga Street.
I hope we are getting a Red Roof Inn soon. That building has so much flavor!
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 08:45 PM   #15980
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I thought this tower was supposed to be six floors? According to this picture, it looks like six floors.
You're right, six floors. So far, what has been built follows this rendering to a T. It has those slanted beams on the corner. Hopefully, it goes to the full six. I should know when I pass it this afternoon. They've been doing about a floor every two days.
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