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Old February 18th, 2012, 08:45 PM   #16341
k25150
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I think Baltimore's provincialism prevents outside/national investment (even international investment) in terms of development. Outside of medicine, it's viewed as a mid tier city with a mid tier vibe.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #16342
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I think Baltimore's provincialism prevents outside/national investment (even international investment) in terms of development. Outside of medicine, it's viewed as a mid tier city with a mid tier vibe.
I agree. Those are the folk who are doing okay with the way things are and want to keep it that way even if it means that the city doesn't grow. In spite of that, the perceptions are changing a bit. I work in the real estate development/finance business and work with some of the leading money houses in the world. All of the economics and various metrics point to Baltimore being a diverse and exciting city. We have one of the most "diverse" economies of any city in this country. But for the provincialism .... we're a world class city and I've been to many that don't have half of the god given organic "raw ingredients" that Baltimore has. What a shame ... we could be so much more.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #16343
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Bravo Klynch! I find some of the comments made on this site (about the economic capacity, viability of Baltimore and its metro region, etc.) amazingly misinformed. I'm stupefied about how little many people who post on this site know about the economic realities, purchasing power, etc. of Baltimore. THERE IS NO LACK OF MONEY IN BMORE. WHAT'S MISSING IS THE LACK OF POLITICAL VISION AND LEADERSHIP, A COMPREHENSIVE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT VISION AND THE WILL TO GET THINGS DONE (some of that is the desire for some things to remain the same as unfortunately some benefit from the status quo). I wish folk would do some research before posting. For instance, the Baltimore metro region boasts one of the highest area median incomes of any metro region in the country. At $85,600 it is higher than New York ($65,000), Los Angeles ($69,300) Philadelphia ($81,600), Chicago ($75,800), Miami ($56,900), Atlanta ($68,300), Dallas ($69,100), Denver ($78,200) (here is a link to the data https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/refmaterials/hudmedinc/ ). And please spare me the comments about how our proximity to DC helps to boast that number. No doubt, we do benefit a bit by some folks down in the Howard County area, south of Columbia who trek to DC daily; but that is way overblown. Our economies are totally separate. In fact recently, the Baltimore economy created more total jobs than DC as the federal government has begun to trim its waist line. Downtown Baltimore boasts over 40,000 residents within a mile of the downtown core (the 8th highest concentration in the country); approximately 5,000 families earn over $75,000 (8th highest in the economy) -- the point here is that not all of the wealth is located in the burbs. I could go on and on but had to get this off of my chest.

So .... why don't we have a vibrant retail center in the middle of downtown (see the all caps portion of this post above).

I read this board a lot. I don't post very often but I just like to set the record straight when I read ridiculous comments that suggests that Baltimore is basically a poor downtrodden ghetto slowly sliding into the middle basin of the Patapsco River.



Oh .... btw. Working on something that I hope to announce on this site that will support the very points that I have made in this post. Cheers!
Amen 100% You nailed it! What you said applies to all development projects in Baltimore! Oklahoma City has an NBA team and an NBA sized arena but we don't?
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:22 PM   #16344
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4) It's important to separate what is going on inside Baltimore City from what is going on outside Baltimore City. The counties surrounding Baltimore City are doing well, but that is despite Baltimore City, not because of it. Baltimore City has serious problems with taxes, crime, schools, decaying infrastructure, and population loss. I know city boosters don't want to hear this, but it's true. And the combined metropolitan area, including the city and surrounding counties, is being surpassed by other regions around the country. For the region to fully realize its tremendous potential, we can't just depend on the counties.
I'm sorry but I just had to respond to this. I agree with the rest of your post, but your suggestion that the city somehow drags down the surrounding counties is myopic at best. You must realize that much of the city's population loss over the last 50 years has been the counties' gain as people sought to escape high taxes, crime, declining schools and "diversity." So too have the counties benefitted from the city's business district extruding its guts and setting up shop in suburban office parks (see, e.g. T.Rowe Price's 3,000+ employees in Owings Mills). Also being ignored here are the institutions that provide not only jobs but education, healthcare, arts, culture and entertainment that are located in the city and utilized by those in surrounding counties. Finally, the city has suffered from its inability to annex land as the suburbs grew, and this has given suburbanites a way to avoid having to pay for all the infrastructure, maintenance, and upkeep that goes with sustaining a 250-year old, dense urban core, with all its myriad problems. In reality, it is the city dwellers who shoulder the greatest burden and the suburbanites who "free ride" to some extent off of the city.

Otherwise, you are correct in that growth-wise, having a more vibrant city could allow the counties to be more successful. In that sense, the city is the key to helping the counties continue to grow in an era where it seems the suburban model may be losing its lustre.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:31 PM   #16345
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Quick correction. Baltimore is seeking to add 22,000 "families" not "residents" over ten years. This may equate to 50,00 to 60,000 people depending on household composition. DC started a similar comprehensive strategy in 2004 in which they sought to add 100,000 residents.
No. Baltimore is aiming to grow by 22,000 people, or 10,000 families, in 10 years:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...perty-tax-rate

To put that in perspective, the rate of natural increase (birth rate minus death rate) in the US is about 0.55% year. So in 10 years, natural growth of Baltimore should add about 35,000 people.

You read that right. Baltimore's goal is to add fewer families in the next 10 years than the natural rate of growth would. If Baltimore has grown by 25,000 people ten years from now, it means the city would have lost another 10,000 people to out-migration. And there's a good chance that by then Baltimore City will be the third-largest jurisdiction in the Baltimore metropolitan area.

C'mon. We can do better. Cut off the flow of taxpayer money to economically inefficient projects and remove the tax barriers that are keeping most of the activity in the suburbs. Then sit back and watch the growth blow the mayor's goal away.

One more final thought: while people in Baltimore are sitting around wondering how we can get United, people at United are sitting around wondering how they can get DC. That is the position we want to be in.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #16346
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I'm sorry but I just had to respond to this. I agree with the rest of your post, but your suggestion that the city somehow drags down the surrounding counties is myopic at best.
...
Otherwise, you are correct in that growth-wise, having a more vibrant city could allow the counties to be more successful. In that sense, the city is the key to helping the counties continue to grow in an era where it seems the suburban model may be losing its lustre.
I agree with your last point, and I should clarify myself on the first. I agree that the counties have benefitted from being near the city, but I think they could be doing even better if the city were doing better. They have in a sense been helped by the city's failings, but they'd probably gain even more from the city's success.

The total metro region, including both the city and the counties, should be doing better, and it's pretty clear who's pulling down the averages.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #16347
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I think Baltimore's provincialism prevents outside/national investment (even international investment) in terms of development. Outside of medicine, it's viewed as a mid tier city with a mid tier vibe.
Baltimore's taxes prevent outside investment. Investors care about profits, not vibe.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 01:36 AM   #16348
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... The Red Line has already passed tests for economic viability and is poised to attract more in federal dollars than the arena will in private money.

We're not going to settle this here (only time will tell), but like I said, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Baltimore needs more people. If the current arena site is freed up, probably the best near-term use would be to turn it into a park. That would have the effect of increasing the value of surrounding real estate at minimal cost to taxpayers. If, at some future date, demand for real estate in downtown Baltimore has gone through the roof and people have run out of places to build, then the city could consider selling some or all of it off. But the key is that the demand must be there first.
Yeah. Didn't intend to try to settle anything. More like a heads up: those opposed to the Red Line have not yet begun to fight that lame-*ssed, tinker-toy trolley. And federal dough isn't a lock. Not even close.

Regarding a park on the Arena site: waste of money. Clean up Hopkins Plaza, expand it by tearing down the two story pavilion, and there's your park for that area. The surrounding buildings are: a federal office building, a hotel, a parking garage, an ugly new apartment building, another federal office building, Centerpoint, and some 19th and early 20th century buildings surrounding another parking garage. Not much room for property tax growth there.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 01:40 AM   #16349
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My wife and I added a new Baltimore City resident today! I'm finding it very hard to figure out his stance on the new arena proposal though...
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Old February 19th, 2012, 02:13 AM   #16350
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My wife and I added a new Baltimore City resident today!
Congratulations!
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Old February 19th, 2012, 05:59 AM   #16351
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Yes!!!!! Now that's organic!!!!

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My wife and I added a new Baltimore City resident today! I'm finding it very hard to figure out his stance on the new arena proposal though...
Congratulations .... only 59,999 to go!!! (of course that negates move outs and ups for that matter).
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:14 AM   #16352
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& Teams On The Verge of Collapse. Is there a potential relocatee here?

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None of that matters. Baltimore has incredible financial track record with their teams. The Ravens are top 10 in value, top 10 in attendance, and have an incredible deal with the Maryland stadium Authority.

The Orioles also have an incredible deal with the stadium authority, a huge value based on the team and TV deal, and despite losing where also in the top 10 in attendance until recently.

Both teams also have tv and radio deals in DC, and DC has their own team in both sports.

Baltimore is a good sized market, with growth and a lot of money. If the other stuff mattered than teams in places like Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Tampa wouldn't flounder like they do.
Seven Pro Teams On The Verge of Collapse (http://247wallst.com/2011/11/08/seve...of-collapse/3/)

I think the Timberwolves are a real opportunity!!



The owners of the Los Angeles Dodgers have recently agreed to sell the team, following a bankruptcy filing in June of this year. The team may sell for more than $1 billion — the highest in baseball history and a premium on the $800 million value Forbes has assigned it in its annual ranking.
24/7 Wall St. set out to identify the teams that were likely to follow the Dodgers down a similar path. Teams lose money because they lose fans. Teams lose fans because they lose games. 24/7 Wall St. has identified teams that are on the brink of collapse by measuring long-term financial performance, as well as win/loss records and attendance.
Read The Seven Pro Teams On The Brink Of Collapse
The greatest single cause of a team’s long-term success is obvious: whether or not it wins games. A quick glance at profit and attendance shows that, generally, teams that do well enough to make the playoffs manage to have high ticket sales. Only a few franchises can fail to make the playoffs for more than a few seasons before their profits begin to suffer.
Across the four biggest sports in the U.S., several teams have seen a massive decline in their attendance. While in some cases this is the result of moving to a new stadium with lower capacity, for the most part these teams simply do not win enough games. At the beginning of the decade, the Indiana Pacers were regular playoff contenders with high attendance, and they were profitable. For the past five seasons, they have lost more games than they have won. During that period, attendance has fallen by nearly 25%. The team has also lost money five years in a row.
According to Forbes, 39 of the 122 professional sports teams lost money last year. Some have lost a few million only a handful of times and likely will perform well in the future. For others, the loss is in the tens of millions and represents yet another season without positive net income. The Phoenix Coyotes, which went bankrupt in 2009 and were bought by the NHL, have lost money for at least 10 years straight. In all, since 2001, the team has lost $118 million. Compared to the Dodgers’ value of more than $1 billion, the Coyotes’ estimated value in 2010 was $134 million.
24/7 Wall St. identified teams that lost money for several years, based on Forbes estimates of income and value. Win-loss records and attendance numbers for a ten-year period from ESPN were used to demonstrate a down trend in performance and poor fan support. 24/7 Wall St.’s pro teams on the brink of collapse had consecutive years of losing money, poor win-loss records and declining attendance.
These are the seven pro teams on the brink of collapse.

1. Phoenix Coyotes
> 10-year change in attendance: -16.40% (third-biggest decline in NHL)
> W-L record 10 years: 329-310-38-61 (sixth worst in NHL)
> Operating income (2010): -$20 million
> Year founded: 1972 (moved to Phoenix in 1996)
> Value: $134 million (the least valuable in the NHL)

The Coyotes are one of the newest teams in the NHL, having moved from Winnipeg in 1996. According to Forbes, the Phoenix franchise is the least valuable in the NHL, worth just $134 million as of 2010. In contrast, the New York Rangers are worth more than three times as much. Between 2001 and 2010, the Coyotes lost money every single year, or a grand total of $118 million in losses over a nine-year period. In 2009, the losses were so high that the team declared bankruptcy. Eventually, the NHL ended up buying the team. Despite the fan draw of coach and hockey legend Wayne Gretzky, as well as making the playoffs two years in a row (after missing them six seasons in a row), attendance remains low.

Also Read: The Major League Teams Americans Bet On The Most

2. Minnesota Timberwolves
> 10-year change in attendance: -12.88% (sixth biggest decline in NBA)
> W-L record 10 years: 339-481 (sixth worst in NBA)
> Operating income (2010): -$7 million
> Year founded: 1989
> Value: $264 million (second least valuable in NBA)

The Minnesota Timberwolves have missed the playoffs seven years in a row now, and with the NBA season in jeopardy, that streak could extend to eight. Looking at the past decade, the team has the sixth worst cumulative record in basketball. In the past few years, the team’s performance has been even worse. The team has won 56 games combined in the past three seasons, a number that five teams have surpassed in past season alone. Minnesota has lost money every year but one since 2004, and it is bound to lose a lot more if the lockout continues.

3. Sacramento Kings
> 10-year change in attendance: -19.79% (third biggest decline in NBA)
> W-L record 10 years: 410-410 (12th best)
> Operating income (2010): -$10 million
> Year founded: 1945 (moved to Sacramento in 1985)
> Value: $293 million (seventh least valuable in NBA)

Compared to the other NBA teams on this list, the Sacramento Kings still have a legitimate shot at recovery in the next few years, but their past few seasons have certainly put the team in a tight spot. At the beginning of the decade, the Kings were in the middle of an eight-season streak of making the playoffs, and during the 2001-2002 season were considered one of the best teams in basketball. The team has not made the playoffs since 2006, however, and increasingly poor performance has been a major drain on ticket sales. Since the 2000-2001 season, attendance has dropped nearly 20%. Net income has dropped four years in a row, and the team lost money in 2009 and 2010.

Also Read: The 20 Major League Teams With The Most Expensive Tickets

4. Indiana Pacers
> 10-year change in attendance: -24.32% (second biggest decline in NBA)
> W-L record 10 years: 399-421 (15th worst)
> Operating income (2010): -$17 million
> Year founded: 1967
> Value: $269 million (fourth least valuable in NBA)

The Indiana Pacers have not been in the black since 2005. Including 2010’s $17 million net loss, the team has cumulatively lost $52 million in five years. The team made the playoffs last year, ending a four-year drought, but then lost in five games to the Chicago Bulls. Attendance has declined precipitously since 2001, when the team was two years removed from a six-game loss in the championship to the Los Angeles Lakers. In 2001, the team averaged attendance of 17,888 per home game. In 2009, the team cut ticket prices by 30%, hoping to attract fans, but so far it has had little success. Last year, the Pacers averaged 13,538 people per home game, easily the worst in the league.


5. New York Islanders
> 10-year change in attendance: -2.40% (eighth biggest decline in NHL)
> W-L record 10 years: 316-322-30-70 (fourth worst in NHL)
> Operating income (2010): -$4 million
> Year founded: 1972
> Value: $151 million (fifth least valuable in NHL)

The New York Islanders have the fourth-worst record in the NHL over the past 10 seasons, winning just 316 of their 738 games in regulation time. On top of this, the Islanders compete in a regional market with the New York Rangers and the New Jersey Devils. Both teams have had far greater success and are profitable. In 2001, the Islanders netted a profit of $1 million, compared to $6 million by the Devils and $60 million by the Rangers. Since that year, the franchise has failed to make a profit, losing $64 million cumulatively through 2010.

6. Detroit Lions
> 10-year change in attendance: -25.18% (the biggest decline in NFL)
> W-L record 10 years: 39-121 (the worst in NFL)
> Operating income (2010): -$8 million
> Year founded: 1929 (moved to Detroit in 1934)
> Value: $844 million (seventh least valuable in NFL)

While Detroit has certainly experienced increasing financial troubles, the team may be in the midst of turning its fortunes around. The Lions are currently 6-2, and the team is tied with several others for the third-best record in the NFL. If they continue to win, they could become a profitable NFL franchise again. However, stepping back from this year for a moment paints a less rosy picture. In the previous 10 seasons, the Lions have won just 39 out of 160 games, easily the worst record in the NFL. This includes the 2008 season, when the team became the only franchise ever to fail to win a game in the 16-game schedule. The team moved from the Silverdome in 2002 to Ford Field, hoping to save money, but even in the smaller stadium the team usually averages well below the 65,000 person capacity. While the franchise was profitable for the first half of the decade, the Lions lost money in four of the past five seasons, including the $8 million lost last year.

Also Read The 12 Major League Sports Teams Running Out Of Fans

7. Columbus Blue Jackets
> 10-year change in attendance: -23.67% (biggest decline in NHL)
> W-L record 10 years: 285-356-24-73 (the worst in NHL)
> Operating income (2010): -$7 million
> Year founded: 2000
> Value: $153 million (sixth least valuable in NHL)

The Columbus Blue Jackets joined the League in 2000, the same year as the Minnesota Wild. Since they joined, the Jackets have won just 38% of their nonplayoff games in regulation time, and have not won a single playoff game (despite making the playoffs once in 2008-2009 season). In its first few years, the Columbus franchise managed to record profits, but as one disappointing season after another set in, attendance has begun to decline rapidly. This season, even after the team added several expensive players in marquee trades, they are off to another horrible start, with just two wins in 14 games.

Michael B. Sauter

Last edited by NUEDEV; February 19th, 2012 at 06:16 AM. Reason: Added article link.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:28 AM   #16353
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I stand corrected my friend.

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No. Baltimore is aiming to grow by 22,000 people, or 10,000 families, in 10 years:

[URL]http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-12-06/news/bs-md-ci-srb-looks-ahead-20111202_1_mayor-stephanie-rawlings-blake-new-families-property-tax-rate

To put that in perspective, the rate of natural increase (birth rate minus death rate) in the US is about 0.55% year. So in 10 years, natural growth of Baltimore should add about 35,000 people.

You read that right. Baltimore's goal is to add fewer families in the next 10 years than the natural rate of growth would. If Baltimore has grown by 25,000 people ten years from now, it means the city would have lost another 10,000 people to out-migration. And there's a good chance that by then Baltimore City will be the third-largest jurisdiction in the Baltimore metropolitan area.

C'mon. We can do better. Cut off the flow of taxpayer money to economically inefficient projects and remove the tax barriers that are keeping most of the activity in the suburbs. Then sit back and watch the growth blow the mayor's goal away.

One more final thought: while people in Baltimore are sitting around wondering how we can get United, people at United are sitting around wondering how they can get DC. That is the position we want to be in.
Watched the speech live, did the math in my head and after calculating, inserted families instead of residents. Thanks for correcting my mistake.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 07:10 AM   #16354
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Seawall embarks on $26M overhaul of Lebow Bros. building
Baltimore Business Journal by James Briggs, Reporter
Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:46am EST - Last Modified: Friday, February 17, 2012, 1:21pm EST



Seawall Development Corp. has begun work on a $26.5 million project to convert the former Lebow Bros. Clothing Co. building into the Baltimore Design School.

The Baltimore Design School, a public middle and high school that includes sixth through 12 grades, is operating at 1101 Winston Ave., but plans to move to its new home in 2013.

The project is the result of a creative financing package that includes $23.5 million in taxable bonds, which were sold in December, and $3 million in state historic tax credits, said Steve Arnold, vice president of Columbia National Real Estate Finance LLC.

“We went out and structured the bonds based on upon the credit of the tenant (Baltimore City Public Schools),” Arnold said. “Based upon the numbers, they’re getting maximum proceeds so the rent will go to cover the debt service and that’s pretty much it.”

Seawall purchased the building with bank financing for about $2 million and sold it to a nonprofit organization, Fashion Architecture and Basic Design School Inc., which was created to be the landlord. BCPS will pay $1.6 million per year for 30 years, which Arnold said will pay off the building’s debt.

Jon Constable, a project manager for Seawall, said the financing could become a model for future public-private partnerships.

“They’re leveraging it like the private market would,” Constable said.

The four-story building, which will consist of 113,787 square feet when completed, has been vacant since Lebow Bros. closed in 1985. The building, in what is now called the Station North neighborhood near Penn Station, was constructed in 1915.

The project began a few weeks ago and should be completed by March 2013, Constable said.

“Right now, we’re doing environmental abatement and [demolition], which we’ve pretty much finished, and we’re starting the concrete restoration,” Constable said. “The full-fledged construction starts March 1.”

The building, which Constable said consists of about 60 percent windows, offers unique design and construction opportunities.

Baltimore's Southway Builders Inc. is the general contractor, and Baltimore-based Ziger-Snead Architects designed the project.

“The building back in the day tapped into ground water, so you had this water geothermal system to condition that air,” Constable said. “Basically, you have an extremely state-of-the art 100-year-old HVAC system in that building. It’s really cool stuff.”

Such elements, he said, will make it a one-of-a-kind home for BDS.

“Yeah, we’re going to have classrooms,” Constable said, “but we’re also going to have an insane media center and studios and workshops that are going to be unique to this building.”
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Old February 19th, 2012, 07:46 AM   #16355
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Seawall embarks on $26M overhaul of Lebow Bros. building
Baltimore Business Journal by James Briggs, Reporter
Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:46am EST - Last Modified: Friday, February 17, 2012, 1:21pm EST



Seawall Development Corp. has begun work on a $26.5 million project to convert the former Lebow Bros. Clothing Co. building into the Baltimore Design School....
Oh no..does that mean no more urban spelunking among the racks of old suits?
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #16356
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For forumers who just need to have some Baltimore outdoor soccer...

(From last November)


TAMPA, Fla. – United Soccer Leagues announced today that the Baltimore Bohemians will join the PDL for the 2012 season. The Bohemians, operated by principal owner Louis Angelos, will call Cedar Lane Park in Bel Air, Maryland their home.

http://pdl.uslsoccer.com/home/581084.html

-------

If it goes well, maybe ole Louie Angelos will go buy a MLS team regardless on what the United choose to do.


**The Angelos family purchasing another professional sports franchise in Baltimore is a huge upper/downer.
There is a Cedar Lane park with a substantial sports complex in Columbia. A cedar Lane park does not exist in Bel Air.

I would much rather see baltimore with a MLS team than NBA or NHL. Although I do have a soft spot for the Old Skipjacks, bring back the AHL!
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Old February 19th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #16357
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Cedar Lane Park is in Bel Air. I've been there at least 20 times. Second nicest complex around behind the Germantown Soccer plex.

http://www.cedarlanesports.org/
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Old February 19th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #16358
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Expect a new ABA elite b-ball team before the NBA. NBA is in bad shape. They need to to contract. Their new CBA barely addresses their issues.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #16359
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Looks like more stalling is in order on the Superblock...

http://www.baltimorebrew.com/2012/02...or-protesters/

While I'm sympathetic to the need to preserve the city's African American heritage, I'm just astounded at how counterproductive all of this protesting is. It's 10 years of legal delays that have led to the extent of decay we're seeing. Besides, didn't the Read's activists sign off on SRB's plan to place a memorial at the site of the drug store and preserve elements of the facade?
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #16360
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so, lemme' get this straight...

activists of the Read's building didn't give a damn about this building when it sat vacant for years, and now that its ready to be developed, they wanna' call shots on the timeframe on when it gets developed?

wasn't there some kinda' agreement set in place saying that the walls of this building would be saved?
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