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Old November 26th, 2010, 02:39 AM   #2041
Nuwanda
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Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy View Post
To be fair, the skyscrapers of the Western World are monuments to capitalism, which has proven in the past few years that it is not fair or stable at all.
Rubbish. People vote with their feet and they vote for capitalism. The Berlin Wall wasn't designed to keep westerners out, it was designed to keep in the slaves who powered the anti-capitalist Eastern Bloc.

Tell the poor wretches in anti-capitalist North Korea that western capitalism is unfair. And tell them that they should feel good about that monstrosity of a hotel when they have neither freedom or hope.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 04:49 AM   #2042
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Yep, the economic model adopted by 99% of the world's most prosperous countries is not fair or stable.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 06:13 AM   #2043
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If it were fair or stable, it would bring more equality. If anything capitalism means more separation between people. I believe money hurts a lot more people than it brings happiness to, and the reason our Governments like it so much is because they're among the few who are truly happy with it. You've just got to look at the economic clusterf*ck of recent years to see that capitalism isn't sustainable, but people seem to forget any lessons learned from these disasters quickly.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 06:21 AM   #2044
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Originally Posted by OptomistOne View Post
Fact is hundreds of thousands of North Koreans will probably come very close to starving to death this winter....meanwhile the "Government" forms the view that funding this disgusting monstrosity should take precedence over feeding the poor.

Rant over.

As to the building it's horrible and has no asthetic merit at all.
The sad truth. I don't think the DPRK needs a building like this, I don't know why they're funding this if no one but Chinese businessmen go to DRPK
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Old November 26th, 2010, 06:23 AM   #2045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy View Post
If it were fair or stable, it would bring more equality. If anything capitalism means more separation between people. I believe money hurts a lot more people than it brings happiness to, and the reason our Governments like it so much is because they're among the few who are truly happy with it. You've just got to look at the economic clusterf*ck of recent years to see that capitalism isn't sustainable, but people seem to forget any lessons learned from these disasters quickly.
Equality is boring. Who wants a world where everyone has the same amount of money, the same amount of success? Not everyone is supposed to be happy.

When people forget the lessons learned from economic disasters, they fail. Or at least they should, just like the bailed-out banks should have. Then, new people or companies will come along who will not make those same mistakes.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 06:24 AM   #2046
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Originally Posted by casinoland View Post
well for starters, tourists stay for 5-7 nights, not one. and i didn't say the whole thing would be reserved for tourists. i assume tourists would stay here because i'm pretty sure this is the most extravagant building in north korea.
Oh right for all those dignitaries...staying...at...wait never mind.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 09:33 AM   #2047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy View Post
If it were fair or stable, it would bring more equality. If anything capitalism means more separation between people. I believe money hurts a lot more people than it brings happiness to, and the reason our Governments like it so much is because they're among the few who are truly happy with it. You've just got to look at the economic clusterf*ck of recent years to see that capitalism isn't sustainable, but people seem to forget any lessons learned from these disasters quickly.
More equality? Do you understand the concept of the middle class in capitalistic societies? The self-made people. The people who are independent of government and aren't reliant on it. Freedom is all that matters. And freedom is messy. Not everyone is the same. We all have the same political rights but that's not the same as equality of outcome.

You're obviously the type who believes that the enrichment of one person requires the impoverishment of another. So let's just rob Peter to pay Paul. You end up with a world of legalised violence committed by the state to enforce equality of income.

You end up with North Korea. You end up with hell on earth.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 10:21 AM   #2048
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Capitalism is the system that most closely resembles our intuitions as living things. As such it is unavoidable and should be encouraged. But it not fair. To pretend it is is to deceive yourself.

As to the Ryugyong, it is a significant building precisely because of where and how it has been built. Whether you like it or not there have been a completely different set of priorities in creating Ryugyong and it stands apart from nearly every building of modern times because of this.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #2049
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Capitalism is the system that most closely resembles our intuitions as living things. As such it is unavoidable and should be encouraged. But it not fair. To pretend it is is to deceive yourself.
Capitalism is the fairest system ever invented because it allows every person to rise to the level of the own ability and reap the rewards. It also allows each person to be charitable as they see fit, without obligation. Thus it encourages true friendship between individuals and nations. The anti-capitalist regimes, the regimes based upon the notion of "fairness", are the ones the practise legalised theft and thrive on class conflict as people seek to get ahead not on their own merits, but on the basis of political favors.

Quote:
As to the Ryugyong, it is a significant building precisely because of where and how it has been built. Whether you like it or not there have been a completely different set of priorities in creating Ryugyong and it stands apart from nearly every building of modern times because of this.
That statement could mean almost anything, therefore it's meaningless.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 02:18 PM   #2050
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This topic should be closed, really.

It has been explained 100 times in this topic that Orascom is funding this project and that it is a multi purpose building. And there are still people showing up to derail this topic with their baseless claims and political views. Thanks for ******* it up!
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Old November 26th, 2010, 04:01 PM   #2051
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This topic should be closed, really.
Agreed. And maybe the people derailing it time and again should be brigged for a while...or only allowed to post in the Skybar...
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Old November 26th, 2010, 05:17 PM   #2052
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Originally Posted by vincenand View Post
This topic should be closed, really.

It has been explained 100 times in this topic that Orascom is funding this project and that it is a multi purpose building. And there are still people showing up to derail this topic with their baseless claims and political views. Thanks for ******* it up!
This and many others threads in supetalls.

Or ban to certain users.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #2053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincenand View Post
This topic should be closed, really.

It has been explained 100 times in this topic that Orascom is funding this project and that it is a multi purpose building. And there are still people showing up to derail this topic with their baseless claims and political views. Thanks for ******* it up!
You got the point man! I agree with you!
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Old November 26th, 2010, 05:26 PM   #2054
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No need to close threads or ban users, just remove inappropriate posts that will lead to these discussions. This building is really taking a long time to complete. I hope to see at least the cladding done sometime soon. As for the interior, I'm not too fussed
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Old November 26th, 2010, 08:29 PM   #2055
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Politics are all well, but it should be put in a separate part of the Internet. Or even nearby: Create a separate section of the forum website called "Supertall Politics". Everything that remotely mentions capitalism, communism, socialism, marxism, monarchy, diplomacy, puppetry, military, or anything remotely political sounding, gets promptly moved to that forum (even automatically, after 3 or 4 votes on a "This is Political" button next to the post.)
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Old November 26th, 2010, 08:32 PM   #2056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Битола View Post
Equality is boring. Who wants a world where everyone has the same amount of money, the same amount of success? Not everyone is supposed to be happy.

When people forget the lessons learned from economic disasters, they fail. Or at least they should, just like the bailed-out banks should have. Then, new people or companies will come along who will not make those same mistakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuwanda View Post
More equality? Do you understand the concept of the middle class in capitalistic societies? The self-made people. The people who are independent of government and aren't reliant on it. Freedom is all that matters. And freedom is messy. Not everyone is the same. We all have the same political rights but that's not the same as equality of outcome.

You're obviously the type who believes that the enrichment of one person requires the impoverishment of another. So let's just rob Peter to pay Paul. You end up with a world of legalised violence committed by the state to enforce equality of income.

You end up with North Korea. You end up with hell on earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuwanda View Post
Capitalism is the fairest system ever invented because it allows every person to rise to the level of the own ability and reap the rewards. It also allows each person to be charitable as they see fit, without obligation. Thus it encourages true friendship between individuals and nations. The anti-capitalist regimes, the regimes based upon the notion of "fairness", are the ones the practise legalised theft and thrive on class conflict as people seek to get ahead not on their own merits, but on the basis of political favors.
If you guys do want to continue this discussion somewhere it should probably be moved to a skybar or something. I'd be more than happy to continue the discussion because I find it interesting and already wrote out points for these posts and how the argument that 'everyone gets a fair chance' is basically BS (Are you saying I've had the same chance as the Prince of Wales? Or Bill Gates' kids? It promotes the idea that no matter how smart you are or how nice a person you are, if you aren't born into at least some money your chances of fulfilling your full potential are slim, at best). I had points for all of these posts before I noticed the problem we were causing. Then when the next update arrives there isn't pages and pages of talk about the pros and cons of capitalism. If you guys want to keep talking, create a thread somewhere and post the link here.

I would like to clear one thing up though as it's directed at someone who thinks they know what type of person I 'obviously' am.

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Originally Posted by Nuwanda View Post
You're obviously the type who believes that the enrichment of one person requires the impoverishment of another. So let's just rob Peter to pay Paul. You end up with a world of legalised violence committed by the state to enforce equality of income.

You end up with North Korea. You end up with hell on earth.
No. Your view of politics and economics are just so narrow that you're unable to grasp any concept that isn't either Capitalism or a form of communism with complete Government control.

Last edited by Newcastle Guy; November 26th, 2010 at 08:51 PM.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 08:49 PM   #2057
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Reminder -- this isn't a 100% pure hotel like originally intended anymore. Sources, including BBC and Orascom, have mentioned it is a multi-purpose building involving hotel, offices, residences, and revolving restaurants.
I don't want to start another conflict, but I don't think there can be any offices or residences in the Ryugyong Building. Only hotel rooms (from the podium straight up to the restaurant levels) and several revolving restaurants. Unless someone is willing to allow some condo-hotel units on a third of the building. Also, if I were to count the floors of the building, it must have lower than 105 floors.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #2058
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Politics aside, this building is heinous. Even with the class cladding, it looks like some supervillain HQ.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 09:57 PM   #2059
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Originally Posted by Jim856796 View Post
I don't want to start another conflict, but I don't think there can be any offices or residences in the Ryugyong Building. Only hotel rooms (from the podium straight up to the restaurant levels) and several revolving restaurants. Unless someone is willing to allow some condo-hotel units on a third of the building. Also, if I were to count the floors of the building, it must have lower than 105 floors.
Why can't Ryugyong be used for offices and residences?

Debate specifically on this topic would be welcome, and drown out politics talk.
I'd like to hear some arguments or a source for what you said.

...Don't say "layout". In some countries, boring hotel hallway layouts are often used as offices and residences. It's DPRK, after all...
...Don't say "room size". For example, Japan has many apartment towers with residences smaller than New York City hotel rooms. And even if they wanted bigger residences, rooms can also be interconnected with the addition of doorway between two adjacent rooms. (Construction companies can do structural checks before cutting a 2-foot hole in a structural wall, they can determine optmium locations that won't affect the building structurally, the loads are often focussed at specific points of the wall, not evenly distributed along the entire wall.)
...Don't say "facilities". Extra electricals and plumbing can be added vertically to the mechanical floors; look at the gigantic mechanical floorplans added by Orascom that wasn't part DPRK's original building plan -- enough mechanical floor room for cooling/electrical/water/sewage capacity to compensate for extra heating/power/use/etc caused by addition of kitchens/copiers/computers/office equipment to rooms that were formerly only going to be used as hotel rooms. Big retrofit like that sort of upgrade have been succesful, there's precedent.

Other technical arguments about the supertall, please?
We can drown out the politics and focus on supertall nitpicks and technicalities, as skyscraper enthusiasts.

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; November 26th, 2010 at 10:13 PM.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 05:18 AM   #2060
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Oh right for all those dignitaries...staying...at...wait never mind.
well one would probably assume that there are north korean dignitaries. and as others have mentioned, the whole structure isn't going to be a hotel. but my original point was that once this building is habitable, i think this is where tourists would stay, because north korea goes to great lengths to impress visitors.

also, can a mod please ban 'nuwanda'? his bantering might be more tolerable if he grasped a true understanding of politics...

Last edited by casinoland; November 27th, 2010 at 05:25 AM.
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