daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > Supertalls > Proposed Supertalls



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 17th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #3681
mrfusion
Home Energy Reactor
 
mrfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phnom Penh & Sydney
Posts: 6,977
Likes (Received): 302

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
I just can't understand the bias against the Ryugyong. There are much worse buildings (structurally) that nobody seems to care about, so it seems to me that location is a massive factor in the building's hatred. A similarly designed tower in Russia proposed by Norman Foster saw nothing but praise.
Well, we are not allow to talk about other building in this thread, can we?

Can you points to the other Russia Norman Foster building, has it been abandoned like this one?
__________________
Your brain has two parts: the left and the right. the left gets nothing right, and the right has nothing left.

One of the basic differences between God and humans is, God gives, gives and forgives, Humans gets, gets and forgets.
mrfusion no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 17th, 2012, 09:39 AM   #3682
nr23Derek
Registered User
 
nr23Derek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Norwich
Posts: 211
Likes (Received): 77



This image shows what I meant upthread when I said it looks "lopsided" from some angles.

Derek
nr23Derek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 10:19 AM   #3683
baconnugget
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 17
Likes (Received): 0

great building i never really expected it to look so magnificent with the cladding on
baconnugget no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #3684
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 34,555
Likes (Received): 61042

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfusion View Post
Well, we are not allow to talk about other building in this thread, can we?

Can you points to the other Russia Norman Foster building, has it been abandoned like this one?
MOSCOW | Russia Tower | 612m | 2009ft | 118 fl | On Hold
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=396624

Work started but it never came beyond the foundation works.

And I got to say that although the towers look similar they are different enough for people to have different opinions about them. Not everybody looks only at the shape of a tower to decide if they like it or not. The Norman Foster design looked much more sophisticated with much better use of materials just to say a couple of things.

I also got a feeling that politics are now also used by people who don't seem to understand that other people can actually in a neutral way dislike this building. There might be more talk about it then other buildings, but part of it's attraction (positive and negative) is also that is in a closed country and that is was abandoned after it was topped out for such a long time. It's simply more fascinating then just another 300m tall tower in Dubai or China.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 01:23 PM   #3685
mrfusion
Home Energy Reactor
 
mrfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phnom Penh & Sydney
Posts: 6,977
Likes (Received): 302

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
MOSCOW | Russia Tower | 612m | 2009ft | 118 fl | On Hold
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=396624

Work started but it never came beyond the foundation works.
How can people have a view on its structure quality if it never pass foundation.
__________________
Your brain has two parts: the left and the right. the left gets nothing right, and the right has nothing left.

One of the basic differences between God and humans is, God gives, gives and forgives, Humans gets, gets and forgets.
mrfusion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 01:41 PM   #3686
KillerZavatar
also known as Wally
 
KillerZavatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Düsseldorf
Posts: 11,330
Likes (Received): 8231

if it was finished in 1990 it would have been the second tallest building in asia. now it doesn't even make it into the top 20 anymore, even when excluding the middle east
KillerZavatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #3687
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Most hate for this building comes from the fact that it's in the most secretive and hated nation in the world. Therefore, rumors and speculation are published quite often.

Soviet-built concrete blocs are very strong. Not to mention that North Korea used higher quality concrete than communist China did.

Judging by those windows, the concrete must be at least two feet thick. This building uses some of the most redundant amounts of concrete I've seen on any highrise. From construction models, there was steel rebar sticking out of the concrete forms, meaning that this is not only made from concrete, but reinforced concrete. Face it. It's the world's tallest bunker.

The building is built in one of the strongest shapes. Each wing supports the other two, and a triangular based pyramid is one of the strongest straight-edged shapes in the world.

Which experts said full occupancy could cause the building to collapse? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
If that's true, the concrete for the brand new NKorean highrises (which looks 5x worse) would probably have given way already, and the ryugyong would have collapsed by now, given the weight of the new cladding and mechanical equipment.

There are three or more 20+ story skyscrapers in Sarajevo that were not only burned, but shelled, too. There were clear holes in the sides of the buildings, and the steel was charred. Nevertheless, they were cleaned up (not demo/rebuilt!) and brought back to use. Where is the American/European media claiming them to be 'uninhabitable?'

If the dirt/chips shown on the concrete in those photos were a legit reason to think the building is in any real danger, then why not evacuate Guy's Hospital? It is horrible and grimy and there are large chunks falling off the facade. Must be in danger of a collapse at full occupancy, eh?

There are also highrises in Bangkok that were abandoned for as nearly as long as the Ryugyong was, and nobody seems to care or declare them 'the worst buildings in the world.

Also, I found a really nice picture of the Ryugyong. It might have some of the highest quality cladding I've ever seen on a highrise. IMO I think it looks sightly nicer than 4WTCs cladding.


When North Korea's regime collapses, This building will see much more love. I promise
Um, this post is full of speculation that has absolutely no evidence to support it

1, There is no evidence that would suggest that high quality soviet concrete blocks were used in the Slaughterhotel.

2, There is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that North Korean buildings use better materials than Chinese do.

To both of these points I would like to add that the Soviet Union and China are rich, while North Korea is very poor. It makes perfect sense that it uses the cheapest materials possible.

3, To me the walls appear only about 1 foot thick and none of us know the inside structure of the hotel. Those perimeter walls could be easily the only structural element, and on the other hand there might be several other structural elements inside, so all speculation about the exact structural model is complete pseudoanalysis. Just because it is focusing on the perimeter structure, does not make it a bunker or a strong building.

4, The shape is far from being strong. It is strong against bending by the wind, and that is about it. Just because the Burj khalifa and the Kingdom Tower have a three section shape doesn't mean this is any similar to them, because you have to take into account how much they are slimmer than the Slaughterhotel.

5, Now comes the biggest problem in your posts, you're denying the facts. I don't trust anything the North Koreans say, but I trust the European Union enough to believe them if they say that they made an inspection of the building. There are countless webpages that report this inspection and each of them report extremely low quality of the concrete. For me that is enough to call that a fact. Also, the opinion of some experts that the building might collapse just by being fully occupied is another information that is supported by many webpages. Just because you don't want it to be true doesn't mean it isn't true.

6, You can't judge concrete by just looking at it. To determine the strength of concrete you must do tests on it or a chemical analysis. you can't just say that this concrete looks to be strong and that concrete looks to be weak.

7, You call the crumbling of the hotel just dirt, which it isn't. Also, you forgot that I specifically said that that is not the real problem, the real problem is that after not that many years the concrete has decayed so much. That is a sign that the quality of the concrete is very poor. This is the true problem. You can restore even far worse surface damage, but you can't make all the original concrete stronger than it is. That is the real problem, that even if fully restored the building will still be extremely weak.

One last note I would like to add is that Orascom might have agreed to the deal of finishing the Slaughterhotel not because it is safe, but because the North Korean government will give it a very profitable deal. A deal that is worth the risk

As a final note I would like to say, we need to stick to the information we have from the internet and that information clearly states that the concrete is of very poor quality and that the building is irreparable, which means that it can't be made strong enough to meet the minimal safety requirements. In my opinion this data is fact, because I trust the European engineers enough to believe their findings and these findings are backed up by very many webpages
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 02:15 PM   #3688
KillerZavatar
also known as Wally
 
KillerZavatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Düsseldorf
Posts: 11,330
Likes (Received): 8231

well the building survived decades of weather without any cladding, so it can't be made out of that crappy materials. the structure did not change since it topped out, so why would you not trust a building that stands in a place for that long of a time already.
KillerZavatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 02:21 PM   #3689
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

Because I saw many buildings stand that long without cladding and having no damage at all, or only minimal damage on their edges. And those buildings were made out of standard concrete. Also, cladding and internal facilities for occupation are heavy and air can flow through open window holes, so I'd say the building had remaining standing far easier than an occupied building would have.
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #3690
Alien x
Moderator
 
Alien x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,793
Likes (Received): 3435

This thread is exercise in futility. Both sides of the argument here exaggerate to the point of making people nauseous. But what I really find amusing is the amount of absolute experts we have here about nk affairs. We are talking about a building in one of the most secretive counties in the world and yet we absolute specialist on everything about that country even though they have never met a single citizen from there. Brilliant.

As for standard of the concrete just stop with so called inspections from eu and others because they never happened because nk would never permit such an inspection. The only inspection that was done was by Orascom which felt confident to proceed with the project. We as the common people will probably never know what the results of that analysis where (one way or the other). So please use your expertise on nk for some other purpose and stop spamming this thread. Everybody is bias by some form of propaganda, but when you already use denigrating comments (either side) in your so called proof then the value of those comments lose any weight and relevance.

p.s. Pictures are never a good indicator of quality of anything and least of all concrete. As someone mention before buildings in Sarajevo where burned, bombed, left exposed to the elements for 3 and half years and looked a lot worse then anything seen on these pictures. Yet not a single building (especially high-rises) where knocked down but where reinforced and repaired and today in the residential tower people and office towers people are working.
Alien x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 06:37 PM   #3691
Northridge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oslo
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 72

What is the Slaughterhotel? I guess it's not the movie.
Northridge no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #3692
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

I call this building the Slaughterhotel, since I think it is a fitting name for a North Korean building. Half hotel, half slaughterhouse

As to Alien X, maybe you should pay more attention to what I actually write. Twice I have specifically said that the external damage to the concrete isn't the problem since the concrete can be restored. The problem is that in order to acquire such extensive external damage just by being exposed to the elements for one and a half decade, the concrete must be of really low quality. That is the problem. You can restore chunks of crumbled concrete, but you can't replace the entire concrete structure if it's weak. The Sarajevo buildings you mentioned were damaged by bombs and projectiles on the surface and were built out of adequate concrete. As I said earlier, such damage can be repaired by concrete restoration techniques, but overall weakness of the entire building can't

Also, the European Commission inspection is a fact. Countless webpages mention it and even the science magazine for which I work has an article about the hotel mentioning it. This is a hard fact. As to why would they let the inspectors in? It is the North Korean propaganda that speaks about how independent they are, but as any other country, they need the flow of money between countries. I believe this inspection was an attempt to lure in more tenants into the building. A desperate attempt I'd like to add, but then again, a country where millions are starving is desperate
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #3693
bagak
Rang Chaniago
 
bagak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ranah Minang - Global Traveller
Posts: 1,802
Likes (Received): 125

By Haryo Saputro

[IMG]http://i45.************/2cp9thg.jpg[/IMG]
__________________
Seorang pecundang mengatakan bahwa bangsa Minangkabau adalah bangsa pemimpi yang suka berpangku tangan, tapi kami bangsa Minangkabau berkata, ya kami adalah pemimpi, pemimpi untuk jadi besar dan sukses, itulah sebabnya kami punya tradisi dimana setiap anak lelaki diakhir baligh-nya akan berjalan meninggalkan tanah kelahirannya mencari jati diri dan posisi di masyarakat dan pemerintahan, dan torehan mimpi mimpi bangsa Minangkabau itu bisa dilihat dari sejarah bangsa ini hingga sekarang.
bagak no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #3694
ZZ-II
I love Skyscrapers
 
ZZ-II's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Near Ingolstadt in Bavaria
Posts: 33,503
Likes (Received): 6525

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfusion

What is/was so futuristic about it?
Many use the word "futuristic" and don't know the meaning of the word. Most time they only mean a good/modern design...nothing more.
ZZ-II no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #3695
singoone
€ Scraping the sky €
 
singoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Prague, CZ/EU
Posts: 1,807
Likes (Received): 666

That is really nice pic.
singoone no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 10:54 PM   #3696
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,482

@ Kanto: I already told you, there is proof that the ryugyong used reinforced concrete. It had a mix of steel rebar and concrete. And where is your proof that the sarajevo buildings were built out of any better concrete, which, by the way, were restored in the same way as the ryugyong?

I find it weird how nobody cares about the Mansudae buildings which used concrete that looked like you could karate chop it in half. But whatever.

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; September 17th, 2012 at 11:06 PM.
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 11:13 PM   #3697
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

I don't remember you telling me that you have proof that the concrete is reinforced. Could you please link me to this proof again?

I don't have any data about the Sarajevo buildings, I only have data proving that the Slaughterhotel was made out of very weak concrete, however, I think that if they would be built out of extremely weak concrete, like the Slaughterhotel, they wouldn't have survived the bombs

Also, I'd like to note that I think it the information of the extremely poor quality of the Slaughterhotel is perfectly feasible and even expected. Take a look at the pic above. There is massive construction in highrises in Pyongyang, yet millions of people are still starving in that country. It is one of the poorest countries in the world, however unlike other extremely poor countries which are mostly slums and have maybe one 100 m highrise, North Korea builds a ton of highrises. Where are they getting the money for this? In my opinion the answer is that they are building with only the cheapest materials, only this way they can afford what we see there. I think there is no other explanation
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 11:45 PM   #3698
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,482

I mentioned that there is a photo of a construction model of the Ryugyong that showed rebar sticking out of the top, and behind the model, you could see 1 or 2 photos that appear to have rebar sticking out:
image hosted on flickr
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #3699
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

Could you please show me those photos behind the model? In the pic you posted I see only construction photos of the construction of a highrise without any details

btw, I don't see any rebar on the model and even if there would be, there is no guarantee that it reflects the construction accurately. North Korea is a true master in creating Potemkin villages. I searched for the pic you posted and in the gallery from which this pic is I also found this pic showing the night lights of North Korea:

image hosted on flickr

North Korean Power Grid by Ray Cunningham, on Flickr

This however is an outright lie of the North Korean government. This is how it is in reality:

__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/

Last edited by Kanto; September 18th, 2012 at 12:07 AM.
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2012, 12:01 AM   #3700
KillerZavatar
also known as Wally
 
KillerZavatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Düsseldorf
Posts: 11,330
Likes (Received): 8231

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Could you please show me those photos behind the model? In the pic you posted I see only construction photos of the construction of a highrise without any details
KillerZavatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
asia, north korea, potonggang-guyok district, pyongyang, ryugyong hotel

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu