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Old September 18th, 2012, 12:09 AM   #3701
Kanto
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With "a highrise" I meant an unidentified highrise, not the Slaughterhotel. He talked about pics showing the construction of the Slaughterhotel, not pics that show the construction of an unidentified highrise
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Old September 18th, 2012, 12:26 AM   #3702
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I was going to respond but found it futile meantime.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 12:29 AM   #3703
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I just think of it as "Asian Googie", and then it works.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 12:31 AM   #3704
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It is the construction of one of the wings of the ryugyong, but the slanting part had not been built yet.
Edit: wait, nvm it's not,

Well at least you can see that rebar was used in Nkorean construction.

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; September 18th, 2012 at 12:43 AM.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 12:33 AM   #3705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I call this building the Slaughterhotel, since I think it is a fitting name for a North Korean building. Half hotel, half slaughterhouse
Gotcha. For some reason I thought it had to do with some eastern Europe high rise.

Anyways, it's a good thing that the poor condition of the structure of the buildning get some attention here. I've posted about it here two times before without it get any attention, and one time the post was deleted.
IMO I think it's a fundamental thing(no pun) that all of the prayers of this tower should take into consideration.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 01:14 AM   #3706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Could you please show me those photos behind the model? In the pic you posted I see only construction photos of the construction of a highrise without any details

btw, I don't see any rebar on the model and even if there would be, there is no guarantee that it reflects the construction accurately. North Korea is a true master in creating Potemkin villages. I searched for the pic you posted and in the gallery from which this pic is I also found this pic showing the night lights of North Korea:

image hosted on flickr

North Korean Power Grid by Ray Cunningham, on Flickr

This however is an outright lie of the North Korean government. This is how it is in reality:


The second image was faked... It was posted here like 6 times, a 5 year old child could even fill that in with black in photoshop...
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Old September 18th, 2012, 02:26 AM   #3707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Сталин View Post
The second image was faked... It was posted here like 6 times, a 5 year old child could even fill that in with black in photoshop...
Care to show us a real image!

http://tinyurl.com/9pag5gk
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Old September 18th, 2012, 03:03 AM   #3708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
It is the construction of one of the wings of the ryugyong, but the slanting part had not been built yet.
Edit: wait, nvm it's not,

Well at least you can see that rebar was used in Nkorean construction.
Hang on, so you have no evidence, and you've just admitted on the previous page that the Mansudae buildings were built with what you thought was an extremely thin and cheap concrete?

Rebar has no effect if the concrete around the steel crumbles. Rebar only works to increase the strength and load bearing of concrete that is of the correct mix in the first place. Otherwise you could just build a building out of cheese, stick rebar in it and say it's strong?

I agree with AlienX - no-one can possibly know how this building has been constructed. The chances are, based on rational thought about the condition and wealth of the country, that the building hasn't been constructed to an internationally recognised standard, but we'll never know.

Photo's don't tell you whether it is good or bad. Only way you can know is testing a bored section of the concrete and that is never going to happen.

Let's all just hope that it doesn't collapse when people are in or around it.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 06:27 AM   #3709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Сталин View Post
The second image was faked... It was posted here like 6 times, a 5 year old child could even fill that in with black in photoshop...
Now that we know more of Korea Note, the West has to invent more and more things to discredit the country.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #3710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
It is the construction of one of the wings of the ryugyong, but the slanting part had not been built yet.
Edit: wait, nvm it's not,

Well at least you can see that rebar was used in Nkorean construction.
As was mentioned before, alone rebar doesn't mean anything. Besides, I never claimed there is no rebar, I only said that there is a rumor that there is no rebar. I completely agree that the only real way to determine the quality of the concrete is to test it. And the European engineers inspecting the hotel did that and found out that the quality was very low

As to faking this inspection and faking the night darkness photo, there is absolutely nothing to gain for anybody who would fake that. I believe both this report and the electricity photo are genuine, because insufficient electricity and extremely poor construction standards are very probable in a country so poor that for decades even with UN aid people are still starving in it
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Old September 18th, 2012, 08:26 PM   #3711
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My guess (all anyone can do!) is that because of the shape of this building, all the water collected inside the structure. With a box, a lot would run out the sides. With a pyramid, every drop from the top ends up on the levels below. IF the rebar inside the concrete is exposed to moisture, the rusting process has started and there is no stopping it. I agree that the outer areas could be repaired (like a bridge) but the real question is the structural columns in the basement / lower levels. You know the ones that carry the majority of the load. Were they ever under water (hard to imagine pumps running for all those empty years) and did the renovations include repairing these, or adding duplicate structure around them? We will never know for sure.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #3712
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Actually it's the rebar that will do the most damage to the structure, as the outer concrete facade cracks and falls off the rebars are exposed to the element, and they will start to rust and expand, causing cracks from the inside.

Regarding that satellite image, it must be from years and years ago, since there is no lights on the Chinese side neither, which is impossible considering cities such as Dandong near the border are normally brightly lit.
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Old September 18th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #3713
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The picture is from 2003 and there are lights in China. That pic is just zoomed in.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../dprk-dark.htm
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Old September 18th, 2012, 11:50 PM   #3714
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Before I respond to Kanto's assertions, I'd like to show you all some Mansudae apartment complex construction photos that was taken by a blogger who actually seems to be North Korean. The reason why I want to show them is because they demonstrate how the apartments looked towards the end of their construction phase and how the concrete used for them was mixed.

Here they are:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


The last two photos don't show the entire concrete mixing process as the concrete was made by unprocessed cement brought by the truckload from the cement complex and as stationary concrete mixers driven by portable electric motors were used in the final stage, after which the mixed concrete was brought to the top by way of crane or by way of barrels dragged along the walls of the structures by the ropes you see in the pictures.

You can also see the use of this technique in the construction of the Ryugyong, which is shown between 7:56 and 8:09 of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhEb89fiPTo

Does this mean that the quality of the concrete is poor? Not necessarily. As long as the concrete is mixed properly, it shouldn't affect the structural integrity of a building.

Now to "Kanto":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto
This however is an outright lie of the North Korean government.
The problem with people like this is that they often fail to take into account the following:

1.) The time in which a photo like this was taken;
2.) The context of that time.

The satellite photo he/she posted is from the period that existed between between 1995 and 2008. This period was one when the country suffered an event of natural origins that devastated the country's arable land (which is what caused the famine), many of its important coal mines (which is the main source of the energy used to fire its thermal power plants and the source of the material used to produce artificial textile fibres, fertilisers and other chemicals) and key infrastructure. They call this event the "Arduous March". It should be obvious after reviewing this that the electric generation and distribution network was adversely affected by this situation, producing the results that he/she displayed. Indeed, if one wants to look at it [the photo] from another perspective, one could compare it with the display to get a sense of just how severe that event was.

If one wants to get a better idea of what the electric generation and distribution network of North Korea is actually like, they need to take a look of night satellite photos of the country in the late 1980's, and while I don't have a photo of that to show you all right now (unfortunately), they would see that it roughly matches the display they have.

Last edited by Oljua; September 19th, 2012 at 08:44 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 05:17 AM   #3715
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Not only did you find a clip of the construction, but you found a CLOSE UP?!? Well done!

Who knows how many spectacular construction photos the NK government is hiding?

Nice points, btw

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; September 19th, 2012 at 05:22 AM.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 11:18 AM   #3716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I call this building the Slaughterhotel, since I think it is a fitting name for a North Korean building. Half hotel, half slaughterhouse

As to Alien X, maybe you should pay more attention to what I actually write. Twice I have specifically said that the external damage to the concrete isn't the problem since the concrete can be restored. The problem is that in order to acquire such extensive external damage just by being exposed to the elements for one and a half decade, the concrete must be of really low quality. That is the problem. You can restore chunks of crumbled concrete, but you can't replace the entire concrete structure if it's weak. The Sarajevo buildings you mentioned were damaged by bombs and projectiles on the surface and were built out of adequate concrete. As I said earlier, such damage can be repaired by concrete restoration techniques, but overall weakness of the entire building can't

Also, the European Commission inspection is a fact. Countless webpages mention it and even the science magazine for which I work has an article about the hotel mentioning it. This is a hard fact. As to why would they let the inspectors in? It is the North Korean propaganda that speaks about how independent they are, but as any other country, they need the flow of money between countries. I believe this inspection was an attempt to lure in more tenants into the building. A desperate attempt I'd like to add, but then again, a country where millions are starving is desperate
All I need to know about you, your point of view and your credibility is how you proceed to call the building. The rest of your points are your point of view with out any fact, because you have not given one. But have proceeded to to replay tired propaganda laden comments ( yes all side are guilty of propaganda). Which in my view puts you on par with the regime in North Korea and its propaganda machine. Different side of the same coin.
N. Korea regime is not the topic here but it seems that you can not get past that.
Let me repeat no EU inspection every went to inspect this building. The only people that know about the state of the building work for Orascom and the recommended to their bosses to continue with the building. The rest of us common mortals, including the vast panel of n. korea experts on this forum.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #3717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien x View Post
Let me repeat no EU inspection every went to inspect this building
Just how can you be so sure about that?
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Old September 19th, 2012, 01:28 PM   #3718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien x View Post
All I need to know about you, your point of view and your credibility is how you proceed to call the building. The rest of your points are your point of view with out any fact, because you have not given one. But have proceeded to to replay tired propaganda laden comments ( yes all side are guilty of propaganda). Which in my view puts you on par with the regime in North Korea and its propaganda machine. Different side of the same coin.
N. Korea regime is not the topic here but it seems that you can not get past that.
Let me repeat no EU inspection every went to inspect this building. The only people that know about the state of the building work for Orascom and the recommended to their bosses to continue with the building. The rest of us common mortals, including the vast panel of n. korea experts on this forum.
Um, where did I talk about the regime? I just mentioned that they need international relationships, that's all. other than that I talked only about the building. You stating with such certainty that there was no EU inspection and that all you need to know about what I say is my name for the hotel it the purest definition of pseudoresearch and pseudoanalysis. If you would have done the slightest research on the net you would know that the inspection is pretty much common knowledge. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this inspection happened, because of the vast number of credible sources which state it

Oh, and btw, attacking my objectivity in this discussion is nothing more than a desperate scream of somebody who has no arguments left
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Old September 19th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #3719
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I must point out that, while it does seem that a European commission did go to the D.P.R.K. to inspect the structure, the conclusion they came to didn't concern the quality of the concrete directly. It only concerned its reparability, which they asserted didn't exist.

If one has been paying attention to the statements of Orascom since they started working on the structure, however, it seems to be a conclusion that wasn't based on fact to a great degree, as it has stated that the project was "progressing well" and "There have been no issues that have caused us too much trouble".

Now, let me ask you all some logical questions: why would Orascom, a multinational conglomerate that's looking to expand to new markets, make these statements if the building was irreparable? Wouldn't they be possibly harming their reputation and their ability to expand into new markets if there was no truth to these statements? And wouldn't they be wasting money that could have been invested in more profitable ventures if they knew that the building was structurally unsound and that letting people in there, even to complete the interior during construction, would constitute a safety hazard? I think we all know what the answers are.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 04:34 PM   #3720
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Not exactly. The report did mention low quality concrete:

Quote:
In the late 1990’s there was a brief attempt at re-starting the project. An inspection crew from the European Union was flown to Pyongyang to examine the hotel, and it was determined that the structure was irreparable. The predominant concerns from the report were quality issues with the concrete used and the elevator shafts were said to not be aligned properly.
http://sometimes-interesting.com/201...-the-ryugyong/

Quote:
In the late 1990s, the European Union Chamber of Commerce in Korea inspected the building and concluded that the structure was irreparable. Questions have been raised regarding the quality of the building's concrete and the alignment of its elevator shafts, which some sources say are "crooked".
http://architectuul.com/architecture/ryugyong-hotel

Quote:
From 1992 until 2008, the unfinished Hotel lay dormant without windows, fixtures or fittings and was symbolically topped by a rusting crane. During an inspection in the late 1990s an EU delegation concluded that the building was beyond repair; the alignment of the elevator shafts were found to be crooked and concern was raised over the poor quality of the concrete used throughout the structure.
http://www.colebrookbossonsaunders.c...1-820e6266befa

There are many more pages reporting this information, though I don't want to spam the forum with quotes. Also, I'd like to note that if a building is labeled irreparable it means that it has structural problems, which can not be repaired. Structural problems mean that it is not as strong as it should be according to safety standards

As to Orascom, stating that everything is OK is what every company would do. A company doesn't just say that they are willing to risk the lives of their employees just because the potential profit is worth it for them (which I think is the case of Orascom). Huge companies want money, they don't care about how they'll get it. Orascom doesn't mind whether the hotel collapses or not, all it cares about is the money from the North Korean government
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