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Old September 19th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #3721
mrfusion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Not exactly. The report did mention low quality concrete:

http://sometimes-interesting.com/201...-the-ryugyong/

http://architectuul.com/architecture/ryugyong-hotel

http://www.colebrookbossonsaunders.c...1-820e6266befa

There are many more pages reporting this information, though I don't want to spam the forum with quotes.
It appears no matter how many webpages you found, it is all quoting from the same source, and the accuacy of all these pages depends on the accuacy of the original source.

Quote:
Also, I'd like to note that if a building is labeled irreparable it means that it has structural problems, which can not be repaired. Structural problems mean that it is not as strong as it should be according to safety standards
It means different country has different safety standard requirement, could it be that they are bias or deliberately mispresented because they are negative about NK, could it be that the team is incompetance at the first place?

As soon as they (represent the EU) say it has problems, it becomes a creditable information, and every website will quote from them.

Anyway, where is these elevator shaft suppose to be?

Quote:
As to Orascom, stating that everything is OK is what every company would do.
or bribe could be involved in their inspection.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #3722
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I tried to find the original report but I was unsuccessful at it. Since it was in the late 1990's I guess not everything went on the internet

But judging by the fact, that while they quoted the same source, still, there are many different words in the articles when compared to each other, I'd say the original source is quite old. I doubt that this information would be so wide spread and would survive such a long time if it would be just a rumor. It is possible, but then again, nearly everything is possible on the internet. My opinion is that one must draw a line and set requirements for trustworthiness, otherwise one couldn't believe anything from the net. The information about the EU inspection and its results meets my requirements, so I believe it is true
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Old September 19th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #3723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
My opinion is that one must draw a line and set requirements for trustworthiness, otherwise one couldn't believe anything from the net. The information about the EU inspection and its results meets my requirements, so I believe it is true.
Perhaps, but Authority has taken quite a hit to its credibility on earth the past 5 years.

I am certain that I have lived in, worked in, gotten hotel rooms in hi-rise and skyscraper buildings in China that would fail a similar EU inspection.

Yet they do not collapse.

I envision Swiss, Austrian and German engineers looking over the building and finding it lacking - which they would conclude in many nations as their standards are reknowned to be more stringent where engineering is concerned.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 08:03 PM   #3724
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Perhaps those Chinese buildings do indeed not meet standards, however the Slaughterhotel has been deemed irreparable after 3-7 years of being on hold. But it was on hold for 16 years before construction resumed, so now its condition must be a lot worse.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #3725
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Orascom would not have invested its' time and money on a gamble that the building might remain standing. They would say "We propose properly repairing any exterior concrete by x method, we propose adding secondary support columns to levels x though x, and we propose covering the whole building with x so that no one will ever know how bad it was" in exchange the NK's said "OK! you get a % of the cell phone revenues"

Of course the building didn't meet Euro standards when inspected, never did, never will. Looking at the other building pictures above, the quality of the concrete work looks sub-standard. Even with top quality concrete, you must vibrate out any pockets of air, so concrete PLUS methods are both important. I can only imagine what an inspector would have seen 15 years ago inside the Ryugyong after years of neglect!

Last edited by Scrapernab2; September 19th, 2012 at 11:11 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 08:56 PM   #3726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto
Not exactly. The report did mention low quality concrete:

http://sometimes-interesting.com/201...-the-ryugyong/

http://architectuul.com/architecture/ryugyong-hotel

http://www.colebrookbossonsaunders.c...1-820e6266befa

There are many more pages reporting this information, though I don't want to spam the forum with quotes. Also, I'd like to note that if a building is labeled irreparable it means that it has structural problems, which can not be repaired. Structural problems mean that it is not as strong as it should be according to safety standards
Firstly, Kanto, if you read my last post carefully, you would see that I did say that the quality of the concrete was mentioned in the report, albeit indirectly. The reason why said it like that was because I thought the team inspecting this would have been more than thorough in their evaluation of the structure.

From the links you've posted, however, it seems that, if this did happen, they were either not serious about this or felt that their standards were such that it wouldn't have permitted them to do anything of value.

And secondly, Kanto, I would like for you to take a good look at this:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


The first photo was from when Orascom started to work on the hotel and the second photo was from when they started to clad the structure with glass.

If you haven't noticed yet, there has been extensive restoration work done on the concrete used in the hotel, enabling construction to safely continue. And it's not as if concrete restoration on this structure is impossible, as Mark Rejhon, a member that posted here at that time the aforementioned photos first appeared on this thread explained:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
Concrete restoration is possible. I witnessed it happen locally at an old Canadian apartment tower that had poor concrete quality. Crumbling balconies with rusty rebar sticking out, the effects of hot-cold cycles over many winters with little maintenance. In restoration, they disassembled all the railings, bolted all patio doors shut. The balconies was just squares of ugly ragged concrete sticking out, just like the bad-concrete Ryugyong photograph (but not nearly as bad). They jackhammered all the weak concrete off, about a few inches in until they reached strong unweathered concrete layers, then recast the balconies using the pre-existing stubs of strong concrete / rebar. Occasionally they added new rebar (anchoring it deep in) where existing rebar was weakened. So it's possible to re-cast concrete on top of a concrete stub, provided you 'dress' and 'prepare' the stub properly, including drilling and anchoring new rebar into the ragged stubs before casting new layers of concrete all around it. Strength verification needs to be done too, there are electronic devices that can do it now. Oh, and the Canadian apartment tower ended up much more beautiful than expectede, with a nice modern white-gray-green theme afterwards, and the concrete looked excellent quality for a change. So concrete restoration can do wonders, but it looked like a very labour-intensive and expensive activity.
Also, look here:



It shows, somewhat, mind you, that they are also working on the inside as well as the outside of the building. So, it's clear that Orascom wouldn't have wasted money investing into this if they didn't deem it to be structurally sound.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 09:06 PM   #3727
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Looks like something from Las Vegas.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #3728
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I simply LOVE this tower. Its so futuristic, simple, clean and elegant.
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Old September 19th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #3729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oljua View Post
Firstly, Kanto, if you read my last post carefully, you would see that I did say that the quality of the concrete was mentioned in the report, albeit indirectly. The reason why said it like that was because I thought the team inspecting this would have been more than thorough in their evaluation of the structure.

From the links you've posted, however, it seems that, if this did happen, they were either not serious about this or felt that their standards were such that it wouldn't have permitted them to do anything of value.

And secondly, Kanto, I would like for you to take a good look at this:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


The first photo was from when Orascom started to work on the hotel and the second photo was from when they started to clad the structure with glass.

If you haven't noticed yet, there has been extensive restoration work done on the concrete used in the hotel, enabling construction to safely continue. And it's not as if concrete restoration on this structure is impossible, as Mark Rejhon, a member that posted here at that time the aforementioned photos first appeared on this thread explained:



Also, look here:



It shows, somewhat, mind you, that they are also working on the inside as well as the outside of the building. So, it's clear that Orascom wouldn't have wasted money investing into this if they didn't deem it to be structurally sound.
They were thorough in their report. It's just that when writing an article you can put the entire report into it because it's too long. They shortened the report so that common people are willing to read it. And the articles I posted prove that it was in the report and that it was there directly. there is absolutely nothing indirect about how it is mentioned

As to concrete restoration. The forumer you quoted made a slight error in typing because he said both that the quality of the concrete was low and a few paragraphs later he talks about strong concrete:

Quote:
until they reached strong unweathered concrete layers
Since before this paragraph he said that they will remove the weak concrete I think with low quality concrete in the beginning of the post he meant the weak damaged concrete. This means that the building was made out of normal concrete but it was damaged. In this case restoration is indeed possible. However the EU inspectors said the Slaughterhotel is irreparable and I believe them. If a building is entirely made outta weak concrete then there is nothing to restore. You can't build an entirely new building within an old one

As to the pics you posted, yes, Orascom restored the facade of the building. They had to, otherwise the windows would fall on the ground, but there is absolutely no evidence that they have done anything in the interior of the building. Your last pic doesn't show any evidence of any interior works
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:52 AM   #3730
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COO of Orascom defined this building as mixed use so there will be both hotel, retail, and maybe even office section there.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 02:32 AM   #3731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Orascom doesn't mind whether the hotel collapses or not
Oh it cares. Now think for a minute what would happen to the orascoms cellphone deal if the tower collapsed.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 03:47 AM   #3732
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Poor building. Such a terrible, undeserved history
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Old September 20th, 2012, 04:20 AM   #3733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed007Toronto View Post
Looks like something from Las Vegas.
Your'e saying Las Vegas looks North Korean
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:06 AM   #3734
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Quote:
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Your'e saying Las Vegas looks North Korean
No, he is probably saying the building will fit in better in Las Vegas then North Korea.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:30 AM   #3735
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Err... in Las Vegas nothing really looks like coming from there.

Some crazy things we get to read, No one IN THE WORLD would build something they wouldn't mind wether it collapses or not, what would be the porpouse then? The simply don't build if so.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:39 AM   #3736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
They were thorough in their report. It's just that when writing an article you can put the entire report into it because it's too long. They shortened the report so that common people are willing to read it. And the articles I posted prove that it was in the report and that it was there directly. there is absolutely nothing indirect about how it is mentioned
I read it as, one of the articles (not necessary the one you posted) did have access to the full report, it raised 3 issues.

1. The lift shaft is not aligned.

2. The concrete is of poor quality.

3. The structure is irreparable.

Every other sources quote from them in their own word, or can be traced to originated from them.

Quote:
In the late 1990s, the European Union Chamber of Commerce in Korea inspected the building and concluded that the structure was irreparable. Questions have been raised regarding the quality of the building's concrete and the alignment of its elevator shafts, which some sources say are "crooked".
What do they mean "some source", there is only one inspection, there is one report, if they have access to the report, then they should have no need to source from anywhere else. This statement suggest they have their information from anywhere but the original report.

Why is there a conflict between Orascon inspection and the articles that sources from EU reports? If both did a proper inspection!

The EU is still around, the team that inspect the building is probably still around, when the Orascon tender to restore the building a few years ago, did they step out and yell stop, and bring out the original report stating it can not be repair ?

Maybe because the report didn't say that, the original EU report probably say something like,

1. Lift Shaft 4, 7 and 8 is misaligned.
2. The concrete in Level 11 - 20, 31 - 35 and the 2nd revolving restaurant is of poor quality and
3. some of those are so seriously collapse it is irreparable.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:32 PM   #3737
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Not exactly. If the problems were only in a section of the building, they would have said so. They didn't, so that means that they are valid for the entire building

The "some sources say it's crooked" paragraph can be explained by the possibility that the original report only said that the elevator shafts are problematic, just as they said only that the concrete is of low quality but didn't specify what it lacks. The reporters might have wanted to know what was problematic on the elevator shafts so they asked a few of the inspectors (but not all of them) after the press release about it and they said the problem was that they are crooked. Or, another possibility is that they said "some sources" because there were defectors from North Korea who participated in the construction. To make the long story short, there are several possibilities which can easily explain this paragraph and therefore there is no evidence that would show it being made up. Because there is no such evidence I fully trust the articles stating the truth.

As to the EU warning Orascom about the Slaughterhotel, I doubt they would warn them just like that out of thin air. They have other things to do than to nonstop monitor one single building. Orascom would have to specifically ask the EU for that report. Even if Orascom would ask for it it still can ask for the EU to not tell anybody that Orascom saw that report. Which brings me to the question before the last post, who would build a building that might collapse?

The answer to that is easy, a dictator. For Kim Chong Il and Kim Il Sung their people are just meat. They don't mind some meat being destroyed in the collapse of a building. There is still enough reserve meat to replace the lost meat. They just want to have a fancy symbol of their power and one has to take into consideration that North Korea was already poor when the Slaughterhotel's construction started, so it can be expected that the government wanted the building to be as cheap as possible. i think they knew that the building could collapse, but they hoped that it will take some time before that happens and at that time there'll be enough money to make a replacement.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #3738
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Orascom is private company led by businessmen not by dictators. They care about the cellphone network deal, and if securing the building at least to the extend of serving as an fancy antenna wasn't possible they wouldn't do it because if the tower collapse they will lose the contract and loooots of money invested. It's simple as that. If you can't grasp that you are either naive or biased.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 03:18 PM   #3739
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I guess it's both.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #3740
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This is getting hilarious. The poor quality of this building is common knowledge on the internet with countless proof, yet many people in this thread keep ignoring the facts and coming up with reasons why it isn't true which have absolutely no support by evidence. To me it seems as if the average follower of this thread and defender of the Slaughterhotel was a supernatural engineer, who can determine concrete quality with his twenty ninth sense better than EU engineers can do it by measurements, and (yeah, I'm talking about you patrykus) recently also a supernatural financial analyst who knows details of the Orascom contract even though they weren't made public

Just because you wish the Slaughterhotel to be a strong building and Orascom and North Korea to be transparent and honorable businessmen doesn't mean that it becomes true. Reality is a bit different from what you wish it to be. You can't know what the contract between Orascom and the DPRK says, you can't know the insurance on the building, you can't know what will the DPRK pay Orascom for their services and you can't know which event is profitable for Orascom and which is not. Your lecture about naivety is cute but it collapses under its own weight

Because you haven't seen the contract you can't assume that Orascom would loose money if the building would collapse. It is very well possible that in that scenario the DPRK would build a guyed mast for their money which Orascom could use instead of the Slaughterhotel and all that Orascom would loose would be a few weeks of the network being offline. To put a long post short I'll summarize it into one line: You haven't read the contract so you have no idea what's profitable for who
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