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Old September 20th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #3741
mrfusion
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no, you do not have countless proof.

There is no evidence any of those website listed did their own independent study, more likely quoted from the same source, you have at most one proof, and we are not sure what that source is, and if the source is creditable.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:13 PM   #3742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
You haven't read the contract so you have no idea what's profitable for who
You don't have to read the contract to use common sense. The finishing of the tower was the main reason why the orascom was let in to the north korea in the first place. And finishing of the tower is one of the critical points in north korea propaganda. They are desperate about it. If there is any common sense left in your head you will understand the moment tower collapses the business between orascom and nk is over.

But it's not just that. Those soulless corporations as you call them cares not only about the money but also about the reputation and the later would be also crushed if the hotel collapsed.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #3743
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Let's see if I can make this as simple as possible:
1) Common sense - Orascom repaired and reinforced the support structure inside
2) Foolishness - Orascom just cladded the outside and hopes for the best

Choose 1
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #3744
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Hum... Common sense would say Orascom did what they were paid to do. What was it, exactly? No one knows, since the North Korean regime is not a big fan of public information. Not realistic one, at least.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #3745
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Paid? I thought the deal was that Orascom PAID and in return they would get the investment back from FUTURE tele-communications revenue.

Post #1

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...42&postcount=1
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #3746
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That indicates that upon the tower collapsing, they get no revenues. Again, it sounds logical for Orascom to not only clad the building but actually reinforce it.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #3747
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love this building more and more..
it looks so futuristic circa 1988
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Old September 20th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #3748
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They will need to reinforce the building so a state it does not collapse.

But do they have to provide the 360,000 m2, as propose originally?

Extra reinforcement might need to take a lot of rooms, and sacrifice space.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #3749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfusion View Post
But do they have to provide the 360,000 m2, as propose originally?

Extra reinforcement might need to take a lot of rooms, and sacrifice space.
Of course nobody can know that except orascom. But I can imagine you are right. I'm not delusional, I'm aware this building is not in perfect shape, maybe never has been. And I wouldn't be surprised if they resigned the hotel part and just will use it as and antenna tower, plus maybe some restaurant at the top. I can imagine if indeed such european inspection took place (which we still don't have original source of) and described it irreparable I can imagine it meant irreparable for to the original purpose of the hotel (due to the elevator shafts and other things that can't be fixed). But it is a fact the tower stood for almost two decades after the inspection WITHOUT the cladding and haven't collapsed. So with concrete reinforced, some additional steel supporting structures inside and cladding protecting it from the rain it may not be used as a hotel but it most likely can stand for another few decades serving as an words most expensive telecommunication mast and vital element of north korean wellness propaganda..
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Old September 20th, 2012, 09:50 PM   #3750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfusion View Post
no, you do not have countless proof.

There is no evidence any of those website listed did their own independent study, more likely quoted from the same source, you have at most one proof, and we are not sure what that source is, and if the source is creditable.
Of course there is countless proof. Websites commonly use information from other websites. Trust me, I know that, I work for a science magazine harvesting articles on the web. In most cases most websites and magazines just use material from other websites. Most information on the internet has only one source at its beginning. In this case that one source is the EU inspection. The three pages I posted didn't copy from one another because there are many differences in them. They all come from the report but they were independently written, not just ctrl-c copied from each other, so they are several different sources, not just one source. That of course is not 100 % indisputable but it is as much of a sign of credibility and serious journalism as you get on the net and given the vast number of these pages (I quoted 3, but there are far more of them) and considering that there is absolutely no evidence against those articles, they are fact until proven otherwise. For me, that is enough to call these as articles with facts. Those articles are the only fact that there ever was in this discussion, all other posts are just speculation and counterspeculation in response to speculation

Btw, one more thing I would like to note, which is less than a fact but more than a speculation, an educated guess if you will, is that Orascom in its mission to finish the Slaughterhotel is already loosing money. if they wanted an antenna, they could have built a guyed mast, which would be far cheaper than finishing the Slaughterhotel. If they wanted space, they could have built several lowrises, which would be far cheaper than finishing the Slaughterhotel. If they wanted both, they still could build a guyed mast and several lowrises and it would still be cheaper than finishing the Slaughterhotel. To me it seems that they are finishing the Slaughterhotel only because the DPRK will offer them something which will be worth it, so that means that it is very well possible that they offered them enough extra profit that even the risk of collapse of the Slaughterhotel might still be worth it. Unless you have their contract before your eyes it is absolutely impossible to determine what is logical and what isn't. The possibility of profit even with the collapse of the Slaughterhotel I have stated is speculation, unlike many people here I admit it when I'm speculating, however already in this form it is perfect proof that the "common sense" of patrykus and Scrapernab2 crumbles to the ground like a card house in the wind because a "common sense" argument means that there is no way how a speculation might not be true, however I have offered a counterspeculation, which is in disagreement with your speculation and is still perfectly valid. In other words, if somebody says x = 1 you don't have to determine all possible x to prove the statement wrong, it is enough to determine one more x other than 1 and the statement is proven to be wrong. My counterspeculation is this second x for your speculation

It is my experience that people who argue about something start using the phrase "common sense" once they get completely desperate after all of their arguments have collapsed

Btw patrykus, one small fact, for a building it is easier to withstand wind if it is unclad because a surface with holes offers less wind resistance than a surface without holes
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Old September 20th, 2012, 11:00 PM   #3751
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What's NK government gonna give them? A lifetimes supply of their delicacy: boot and grass?

Also Kanto, If you hate this building so much, then you shouldn't care if it collapses. No point writing so many essays. If we believe there is no good evidence of a collapse anytime soon, then we have our opinion. If it ever does manage to collapse, according to your OPINION, then good for you. The truth is that nobody is certain about the building's future. It's all speculation. Yes, from both sides.
We need more pictures of the building to close such pointless arguments. That have been repeated time and again. We cannot change your opinion, and you cannot change ours, because we both looked at evidence from both sides and made our decision.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 12:06 AM   #3752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Btw patrykus, one small fact, for a building it is easier to withstand wind if it is unclad because a surface with holes offers less wind resistance than a surface without holes
What you call a fact is just another speculation. Windows are not a tubes trough a building. You don't even know if windows from one side of the wing have connection to the other side of it. In fact building like this without the windows may even be less aerodynamic than when cladded.

The only real fact in this thread is that the tower is still standing exposed to rain almost two decades after it was described "irreparable" whatever that means and how ether relevant that inspection results are to the prospect of making the tower an empty antenna podium. Not to mention an inspection which has been prepared two decades ago considering technologies available in 90s, not present today. In short what you call argument in discussion is inspection which supposedly took place two decades ago which doesn't take into account both technology present today and new purpose of the building. To give you analogy you can very well try convincing us that flying machine is impossible based on the article from XIX century reviewing leonardo da vinci wings
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Old September 21st, 2012, 05:20 AM   #3753
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Why do you think it cannot be used for anything other than an antenna?
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Old September 21st, 2012, 07:07 AM   #3754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Of course there is countless proof. Websites commonly use information from other websites. Trust me, I know that, I work for a science magazine harvesting articles on the web. In most cases most websites and magazines just use material from other websites. Most information on the internet has only one source at its beginning. In this case that one source is the EU inspection.
Thanks for the explanation, I am now more confirm there is only one proof.

Just that site copy each other over and over again, doesn't make it any more credible.

Quote:
The three pages I posted didn't copy from one another because there are many differences in them.
It was worded different, but raise the exact same point.

I am not challenging what EU finding, I don't know what they found, but I question if those 3 points raised represent the whole truth.

Did the EU report mentioned it is going to collapse. Surely if the condition is so bad, it would have mentioned it, and if so many website quoted directly from the report, some of them would have specifically mentioned "the report said it is likely to collapse".

Quote:
Btw, one more thing I would like to note, which is less than a fact but more than a speculation, ...
Yes, is only speculation, we don't know exactly what the builder is contracted to do, they may not be there to repair the building, they are there to prevent it to collapse.

It is not hard to reinforce any building so it does not collapse, if a beam is bend and can not be repair, you can padded the space below the beam with bricks. let the brick wall hold the structure, so the beam is no longer load bearing. You may loose a lot of space, but the structure is no more dangerous.

Quote:
for a building it is easier to withstand wind if it is unclad because a surface with holes offers less wind resistance than a surface without holes
Don't know how much difference it will make, looks like at most 20% of the surface are windows, assume the internal walls has already been build, it would allow very little wind to pass.

I think unclad structure will suffer more water/rain damage, you get more sand and dust into the structure, seeds might get into cracks and root expand to further crack concrete structures. Unclad building will increase its chance to collapse.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 07:30 AM   #3755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNNI View Post
love this building more and more..
it looks so futuristic circa 1988
I like it too. It's now one of my favorites anywhere!

I've been fascinated by this megahotel supertall since it's initial construction and the finished (exterior thus far) product has exceeded my wildest expectations. It's a global icon, however people want to spin it.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 07:34 AM   #3756
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Would sure love to see this tower, city and country one day. It would be surreal but sad to see the people living in this totalitarian society. Just wish it will be reunited soon and see it prosper like its southern neighbour. Such unfortunate and tragic past.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 10:45 AM   #3757
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Quote:
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Why do you think it cannot be used for anything other than an antenna?
Again I'm not any authority so I can only guess. But I can imagine if for instance elevator shafts are not straight (never mind if due to the damage made with time or poor quality construction to begin with) there is probably not much you can do. Another thing is if poor condition of concrete requires additional steel supports in each room that also limits using building as a hotel. But as I said we don't know what are the possibilities of fixing the hotel today. Maybe considering present technology the hotel is not as irreparable as it was in 90s, who knows?

The bottom line here is what mrfusion correctly pointed out it's not whether the building is reparable but more if it's "collapsible" which inspection from 90 wasn't concern about and which time proved it wasn't until now.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 10:53 AM   #3758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
Let's see if I can make this as simple as possible:
1) Common sense - Orascom repaired and reinforced the support structure inside
2) Foolishness - Orascom just cladded the outside and hopes for the best

Choose 1
Most succinct post for a long time.

I don't see why people can't think that Orascom had a deal to simply clad it and make it look pretty? If they don't ever let anyone up onto the floors, who will ever know the difference?!

This building is a status symbol for the NoKo government, and was a blight on their desire to portray an affluent and successful regime to their people and the world for decades - of course they want it looking nice, polished and finished. Doesn't mean it needs to be completed inside though, or structurally to take substantial occupancy or weight.

I vote for foolishness, we're talking NoKo here.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 11:01 AM   #3759
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I think you haven't understood Scrapernab2 post fully

...but let him straight it up himself.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 03:00 PM   #3760
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