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Old September 21st, 2012, 04:26 PM   #3761
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So beautyful!
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Old September 21st, 2012, 05:33 PM   #3762
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Looks nice...
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Old September 21st, 2012, 05:33 PM   #3763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
The truth is that nobody is certain about the building's future. It's all speculation. Yes, from both sides.
We need more pictures of the building to close such pointless arguments. That have been repeated time and again. We cannot change your opinion, and you cannot change ours, because we both looked at evidence from both sides and made our decision.
Your post was the most truthful of the many posted yet it was ignored. I think people need to realise that becuase there is hardly any credible information about this building no-one can ever really have a debate with weight behind it.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 08:07 PM   #3764
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Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
What you call a fact is just another speculation. Windows are not a tubes trough a building. You don't even know if windows from one side of the wing have connection to the other side of it. In fact building like this without the windows may even be less aerodynamic than when cladded.

The only real fact in this thread is that the tower is still standing exposed to rain almost two decades after it was described "irreparable" whatever that means and how ether relevant that inspection results are to the prospect of making the tower an empty antenna podium. Not to mention an inspection which has been prepared two decades ago considering technologies available in 90s, not present today. In short what you call argument in discussion is inspection which supposedly took place two decades ago which doesn't take into account both technology present today and new purpose of the building. To give you analogy you can very well try convincing us that flying machine is impossible based on the article from XIX century reviewing leonardo da vinci wings
First you tried to persuade me that there was no EU inspection, then you tried to persuade me that they didn't find the concrete to be weak and now you try to persuade me that they have backwater technology. C'mon, you really believe this nonsense you are trying to feed me with? Late 1990's aren't in the stone age, that is just 15 years in the past. No miraculous technology jump happened since then. Back then they could have conducted tests on concrete samples just as good as they can now

Again I will say that my hatred of North Korea and this building has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion about its engineering, because this opinion is backed by facts from multiple sources. And of course they raise the exact same points, after all, they come from the same report and a report doesn't exchange its points every time when a new webpage uses it as reference

As to unclad buildings, there are doorways in them so they offer less wind resistance, however they are far more vulnerable to weather damage. There is absolutely no source on the net mentioning the damage status of the internal structure. Weather damage, whatever its extent might be, is not my point in this discussion. My point is that the building is made out of weak concrete and that is the fact why it is irreparable. I also don't say that it will collapse, I only say that because of its weakness it has a far bigger chance of collapse under even smaller earthquakes or hurricanes, than a safe building would have. Also, according to gathered data, full occupancy might possibly be enough to trigger a collapse but I think that just cladding it and using it as an antenna should be relatively safe. But unlike some determined defenders of this building, I will say that this is my speculation and please note the "should" and "relatively" words which clearly show the speculative nature of this statement. We know only 4 things for sure about the structure of the hotel:

1, It is built out of weak, low quality concrete

2, It has misaligned and crooker elevator shafts

3, It is irreparable

4, Some (but not all) experts believe that just full occupancy might be enough to trigger a collapse of the building.

These are the four engineering points that have sources, many and credible sources and which can be regarded as fact. Only these 4 points have any weight behind them. Everything else about the structure or economy of this building is just speculation by forumers. One very true sentence is that we can't come up with any information about this building because we don't have access to the building to conduct tests. Other than the DPRK and Orascom only the EU inspection had access to the building and its findings are very well documented on the net

As a few final notes of this post I would like to add that, we absolutely don't know whether there are any internal walls in the building or not. Also, I'd like to add that just because a building hasn't collapsed so far doesn't mean it wasn't in danger of collapse. For an hour or so after plane impacts the Twin Towers remained standing, but after that time they still collapsed. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

And btw patrykus, just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't mean that he hasn't understood something. I think ooh completely understands the post he quoted
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Old September 21st, 2012, 10:25 PM   #3765
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Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Poor building. Such a terrible, undeserved history
i feel the same way. this thing cant get a damn break. this is just a building people. it may represent something that you disapprove of but that shouldn't reflect on the architecture of it.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 11:15 PM   #3766
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I love that last photo. The glass is probably of a higher quality than most buildings in the USA and China. Very few waves.

I can't wait until it finishes and a video is released showing the interior and the 'glorious' opening celebration.
Hopefully by then, it will have had a name change. (The only thing I hate about this building is the name. It needs something more elegant and easier to say.)

Last edited by kanye; September 23rd, 2012 at 06:52 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 04:52 PM   #3767
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Ryugyong Hotel, Pyongyang von Shining75 auf Flickr
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 05:29 PM   #3768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooh View Post
Most succinct post for a long time.

I don't see why people can't think that Orascom had a deal to simply clad it and make it look pretty? If they don't ever let anyone up onto the floors, who will ever know the difference?!

This building is a status symbol for the NoKo government, and was a blight on their desire to portray an affluent and successful regime to their people and the world for decades - of course they want it looking nice, polished and finished. Doesn't mean it needs to be completed inside though, or structurally to take substantial occupancy or weight.

I vote for foolishness, we're talking NoKo here.
I can see both sides. Orascom reps. sit down at a table to discuss what to do and how to proceed with a whole book of test results and facts. The NK's say, "No everything constructed here is perfect, do not question the strength!" (party line)

If I was Orascom, I would have walked away, but something tells me the NK's aren't fools and would have brought them back to listen to reality. WITH the agreement to keep the flaws secret, and just get it done. The labor was cheap. They could bust each support column one at a time, just like they put all that manpower to work hand busting the buildings down to the ground at the new Mansudae site.

I'll say it again: The EU inspectors would have seen a disaster. 15 years of water infiltration with that many freeze cycles would destroy even good concrete.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 05:54 PM   #3769
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Would it? In Bratislava, where I used to live there are several concrete structures exposed to weather for decades and they didn't collapse. In fact, even at their facade they show none or minimal damage. If the water is channeled through the structure and dirt doesn't block the drains, as was said earlier in this thread, even an exposed concrete structure can last for decades. We know only that the Slaughterhotel has been damaged by weather, we don't know the extent of that damage. It could be minimal damage or it could be so bad that it will collapse tomorrow. We really don't know so the fact that it still stands isn't evidence of anything

Btw Scrapernab2, you say what you would do if you were Orascom, but you aren't Orascom, you have absolutely no idea what Orascom wants and what the DPRK is offering them, so again I have to say to you that things aren't as black and white as you might wish them to be
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 02:25 AM   #3770
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 10:41 AM   #3771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
C'mon, you really believe this nonsense you are trying to feed me with? Late 1990's aren't in the stone age, that is just 15 years in the past. No miraculous technology jump happened since then. Back then they could have conducted tests on concrete samples just as good as they can now
This, I agree, there isn't any miracles advance in material science that will have significantly improve our ability to repair work.

Quote:
Again I will say that my hatred of North Korea and this building has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion about its engineering, because this opinion is backed by facts from multiple sources. And of course they raise the exact same points, after all, they come from the same report and a report doesn't exchange its points every time when a new webpage uses it as reference
You are saying is the EU inspect a building with 300,000 sqm of floor space, kilometers of columns, kilometers of beams, possibly 20 or more lift, then come up with a report.

Then you have hundreds of webpages that reference to the report and come up with the exact 3 points with almost the exact wording.

I feel it is very unlikely, I believe most of them never have access to the report and are just copying each other. Which is why they are the same,

Your opinion is back by multiple sources, unfortunately, your multiple source trace to the same source, which means your opinion is actually back by only one source, a summary of the report, and we don't know if that summary is bias, accuate, complete, or if it has been misinterpreted.

Quote:
There is absolutely no source on the net mentioning the damage status of the internal structure. Weather damage, whatever its extent might be, is not my point in this discussion.
There are no source, so your guess is as good as the people that disagree with you.

Quote:
My point is that the building is made out of weak concrete and that is the fact why it is irreparable.
The WHOLE BUILDING ?

If the whole building is make of weak concrete, then it would have collapse already, or you would have at least see damage from the outside. (and I am not even talk about weathering yet).

Quote:
Also, according to gathered data, full occupancy might possibly be enough to trigger a collapse but I think that just cladding it and using it as an antenna should be relatively safe.
You think cladding is safe, cladding requires millions of anchor point on the facade of the building, You can't glue the glass onto the fascade, you need to drill holes on to the facade, putting anchor in, and if the concrete is not up to standard, it won't hold the achor in.

Quote:
But unlike some determined defenders of this building
I am not defending it, I am neutral on these, but reading the evidence you present, I am not convince it represent the whole truth of EU's finding.

Quote:
As a few final notes of this post I would like to add that, we absolutely don't know whether there are any internal walls in the building or not.
It is very unlikely any building will reach its full height with the floor free of walls, especailly when you known the exact purpose of the building before construction, each of the 3000 rooms bathroom (not necessary the fitting) would have been build at the time, etc. so I think there has to be walls. How much difference will it make to the aerodynamic of the building is difficult to tell.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 01:04 PM   #3772
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This is result of Chinies investment. WOW.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 01:14 PM   #3773
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mrfusion, with determined defenders I didn't mean you. I meant patrykus and similar folks

Now to the points, a building is only as strong as its weakest point. It doesn't make sense to use both strong concrete and weak concrete because the strength is then identical to the strength of the weak concrete while the cost is higher. the whole purpose of using weak concrete is to cut costs. That's why I am confident that the EU inspection findings represent the overall status of the building.

As to the webpages, if they would just copy each other they would have the exactly same text in them. Since this is not the case they are indeed writing those articles. All these articles can be traced back to the EU inspection report, which is one source, but fact is that nearly all info on the internet can be traced back to one source, so that is absolutely nothing that would cast any doubt on that information. The fact that that they bothered with individual writing is definitely enough to consider them credible sources. Again I'll say that the info on all those pages is identical because they all come from that EU inspection, which apparently is the only public inspection ever done on the hotel.

A few pages ago I posted pics which clearly showed extensive facade damage, so the building indeed was damaged by weathering at least on the surface. Also, I'd like to again mention that the fact that the building still stands isn't evidence of anything.

Now to the cladding, there is absolutely no reason for it to start falling off if the anchoring is deep enough. The Slaughterhotel is a perimeter structure building, which means that its strength and structural support is focused on the perimeter walls. That's why the walls at the center of the hotel are up to 25-30 cm thick (10 inchese - 1 foot), which is the standard thickness of a core, further in the wings their thickness is reduced to about 15-20 cm (6-8 inches). This means that there is enough structure there to support the anchors even if the concrete is of poor quality. This focus of the building is why it is impossible to compare it from a look from the outside to buildings like the NYC 157, which is a wall grid focus structure or to buildings like the NYC 1WTC, which is a core focused structure. In the Slaughterhotel we can see the main support structure while in the other buildings I mentioned we can't. I'd like to add that this focus on the perimeter is absolutely no indicator of strength. It is only an indicator of where the building's strength is located.

Now the final point I would like to address, there are supertalls which don't have internal walls even after they are topped out. Take the old WTC for example, even after finishing the structure there was still only its core and its perimeter, no internal walls as seen in this pic:

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Old September 23rd, 2012, 02:27 PM   #3774
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Originally Posted by RokasLT View Post
This is result of Chinies investment. WOW.
The building is being completed by an Egyptian company, Orascom, apparently at the company's own expense as a quid pro quo for getting a licence to operate a mobile phone network in North Korea. They might be using Chinese contractors or materials, though, since China would be the most convenient source for anything that needs to be imported.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 05:01 PM   #3775
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I share my view on the EU inspection, we have different faith on the creditbility of those websites, so I think we can settle on that.

It is not how deep you anchor into the concrete, if the concrete is indeed too poor, it will probably be too soft to hold the weight, the windows that takes the wind will vibrate, so the anchor must be securely sit in the concrete, I am no structure engineer, but putting all these hole in will make the structure even weaker.

Quote:
Now the final point I would like to address, there are supertalls which don't have internal walls even after they are topped out.
I am aware of those, and I did want to give those exception but forgot as I type. The exceptions are mainly commercial office type building, (eg: WTC you quoted) it is empty except weight bearing columns, lift and fire stair structure. The rest of the floor is as empty as possible (and it was design that way) to give the potential tenants as much flexibility as possible for its fitout. All bathroom is usually next to the lift/firestairs.

Residential building and most hotels are different, they know what they want to build, they don't work out room arrangement after topped out, it is more likely the internal walls are build as the building go up.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 09:01 PM   #3776
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Yup, I think we can settle on that

As to cladding, I think that with a larger quantity of anchoring even weaker concrete can hold that glass. If they want they can even go all the way through the wall. Since this is a perimeter support structure there is enough concrete on the perimeter to make those anchors deeper. And I completely agree with you that a larger quantity of anchoring might be damaging to the building, but it wouldn't surprise me if they'd do it anyway, since according to the available information they don't care at all about the quality or safety of the building.

As to internal walls, they are built later in the new WTC too. I agree with you that this is the case if the builder wants the building to remain as flexible as possible for the tenants. I think that is what matters, not whether it is residential, hotel or commercial office. Considering that in this case the state both constructed the building and would be managing the building, in my opinion there is no way to know whether there are internal walls or not without an interior pic.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 12:29 AM   #3777
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Sort of.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #3778
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this is ******* awesome...I love euclidean's geometry aplications.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 04:58 AM   #3779
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Ryugyong Hotel, Pyongyang von Shining75 auf Flickr
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Old September 24th, 2012, 05:47 AM   #3780
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Is it just me, or are one of those grey walls finally being torn down? The one right in front of the entrance stairway?
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