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Old November 7th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #3981
Kanto
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Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
No, you just like disrupting this thread. And no offense, but there are quite more people here who have facts as well who disagree with you. And they're not brought on by assumptions of North Kora, but by understanding how businesses would make good investments, and signing up to tenant in a soon-to-collapse buildings is not one of them.

Plus your arguing is kinda pointless since the building most likely won't collapse in our lifetime (if ever)
None of the enthusiasts of this hotel ever provided a single fact. All the information their provided was their opinion and their theories, which is speculation. I have proven that it is not the only speculation by providing anti speculation. No speculation, whether mine or theirs is fact. Only two things are fact: the EUChoC report and its findings and the photos of the building. Everything else is speculation.

And now I'd like to ask you a question, do you really want this thread to become just a spam box of cliches like "Oh this is awesome" or "I love this building" or "Nice progress"? In my opinion this is not what a thread is about. A thread should be about discussion between both enthusiasts and skeptics. Take 432 Park in NYC for example, I have stated several times that it is one of my favorite buildings in the entire world, yet I still defended Erbse who was criticizing it from forumers with a similar opinion like the one you just stated because threads in my opinion are places for a healthy discussion between both factions, not just a meeting ground for only those who love the building

As to mrfusion, there is always a chance, as I said in my previous post but in my opinion the chance that the EUChoC report is bias is so low, that its results can be considered fact unless there is similarly trustworthy proof against it. There is no information on any other report, so all other reports and their findings are pure speculation and therefore should be disregarded.

As to the press, the press just doesn't care enough about a building in the DPHK in order to bother themselves with tracking down the engineers that inspected the building. The 1990 were a time when the internet was still beginning. They would have to go through several officials in order to track those engineers down. I tried once to ask the state of New York a question and it took a month of waiting for me to get an answer. I asked the NYC port authority a question too, and I never got the answer. I don't believe that the building is of sufficient interest to the press in order for them to go through all of this asking and waiting.

And to AlienX, a nickname doesn't mean anything, I give nicknames to everybody and everything and did so since I was a kid. The fact that you have fallen to the level of personal assaults in this discussion saddens me
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Old November 7th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #3982
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Kanto, please give up on this.

The recent developments concerning the hotel should demonstrate that, barring some bizarre event, this building is stable and strong enough to support the activity to occur within its walls when it opens. It might have been (somewhat) appropriate to maintain the position you've adopted in the absence of these facts, but now they are present, that is no longer viable.

Moreover, I'd have to agree with those posters in opposition to you when they consistently point out that not every rumour (or report) is necessarily the truth and that one cannot judge the quality of a building on the external appearance of its concrete alone, especially when that can be dealt with through extensive restoration work.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #3983
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I've never said that one can judge concrete by just looking at it. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I said that the only information we have about the concrete is the EUChoC report a few pages ago. I only said that the photos are fact but I didn't specify what can be learned from them in my previous post. They are only good enough to learn the shape, dimensions and partially, just partially the status of the facade before the restoration of it.

And no, the recent developments show nothing and they provide no facts because no new independent structural inspection report was published. We only know that companies are investing into the Slaughterhotel but we don't know what they know about it and we don't know based on what they decided to invest into it.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #3984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
And to AlienX, a nickname doesn't mean anything, I give nicknames to everybody and everything and did so since I was a kid.
You are not a kid anymore. Or are you? You should especially stop calling it this way since you see everybody finds it so annoying. But you love to be annoying aren't you?

I don't mind discussion about the engineering of this building. I don't mind if someone don't like it. Hell I don't think it's even in my top 10. What I do mind is your attitude and your intentions here. Because it's clear what they are. If you would present your opinion in more respectful way maybe you would be respected, but no you had to start discussion here like this:

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This building is the ugliest building in the world, though the irony is that it fits into it's country because North Korea is the ugliest country in the world. Both the building and it's country are abominations.
Then don't be surprised when eventually people are making fun of you.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #3985
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Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
And to AlienX, a nickname doesn't mean anything, I give nicknames to everybody and everything and did so since I was a kid. The fact that you have fallen to the level of personal assaults in this discussion saddens me
Pointing out that you have personal prejudice and that you have not provided facts but speculation is a personal assault. Fine.
This thread is all speculation from one side and the other.
- Orascom has its own agenda in that it has gained absolute access to n.korea mobile market
- While EU Chamber of Commerce in Korea had its own agenda seeing how that particular EU Chamber of Commerce in Korea is based and promotes EU in S. Korea and has no interest in N. korea. Just imagine the reaction in S. Korea if they said that the building was viable (but they strangely did not provide any technical or physical evidence for their conclusions just analysis of fotos) . It would be a PR (political) nightmare for the EU, and the Chamber of Commerce is about ALL PR.
Thats all from me because obviously both sides on this thread will never take their "head out propaganda "
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Old November 7th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #3986
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Kids (especially those with issues) don't know that concrete can be patched up and repaired.

As for the alleged report, I haven't read it, but if it was made a decade ago, and considering the "authority" behind it, I doubt they carried out any needed technical tests for concluding on the quality of build. I doubt the NoKo authorities allowed them too .... heck, I even doubt there were engineers doing it, well not at least "deeper" then a visual inspection.

While I don't doubt that the build quality isn't the best, especially considering the deterioration due to weather factors, I do believe that the latest developments, especially the appointment of a serious Hotel operator, are reasons enough to believe that the structure isn't collapsing any time soon.

PS: Keep in mind that this is/was the flagship of NoKo's construction industry, even the "pride" of the nation, so if NoKo engineers in-charge were/are as concern of their heads not falling, as the Albanian communist era engineers were, they might have even use a stronger concrete then specified in the technical drawings.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #3987
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Well, to Patrykus, are personal assaults all you can do? Doubting about my objectivity based on off-topic personal opinions is a personal assault, not a civilized discussion. This discussion is about this building and its quality, not about my opinion of how the building looks and my opinion about the country. These have nothing to do with the structural status of the building.

Now, to Alien-X, you said it yourself. The EUChoC has no interest in the DPHK.That's why in my opinion they are objective. What you then described as their "inspection" is not an inspection, that is just looking at a building by random folks. All the web pages list it as an INSPECTION and that means that it was an engineering inspection and that means that they performed all the necessary tests. What you essentially said is that there was no inspection, however all the pages discussing this state that there WAS an inspection, so your speculation is completely in the realm of fantasy.

And finally, to AltinD, you essentially tell the same thing as Alien-X, that there was no inspection, that the inspection is just an imagination by a few folks who looked at a picture of the building. But there is no data that would support your theory that there was no inspection. On the other hand all the independent pages listing it as an inspection is supporting the notion that there indeed was an inspection. In other words, there is no evidence for there not being an inspection, but there is tons of evidence supporting the fact that there was this inspection.

About the hotel operator, it has an agenda, otherwise it wouldn't take that deal. However, we have absolutely no way of knowing what this agenda is, therefore speculating what it might mean is just speculation, not fact.

As to the high regard the DPHK placed on the hotel, that is not proof of anything. Old Kim Il Sung could have just wanted that it keeps standing the few years he had left and once he's dead it can go to hell with him. Also, the reason why construction was stopped was that the DPHK run out of money. It makes sense that if they have few money, but want such a huge icon badly, they will try to cut costs as much as is just possible and using low quality concrete is cutting costs by a lot.

Btw, concrete can be repaired if damaged, however, if the entire structure is made out of weak concrete, then nothing can be done about that.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #3988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Well, to Patrykus, are personal assaults all you can do? Doubting about my objectivity based on off-topic personal opinions is a personal assault, not a civilized discussion. This discussion is about this building and its quality, not about my opinion of how the building looks and my opinion about the country. These have nothing to do with the structural status of the building.
I'm not assaulting you. Your reputation is solely a result of your of your comments here. You are assaulting yourself. I don't have to say a word.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #3989
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Why did Kempinski decide to open a hotel in NK? Is this idea even profitable? Sounds like a publicity stunt unless there is serious demand for 5 star hotels in NK... but this doesn't feel realistic because NK is a very isolated country. It is a weird bit of news. Kempinski will be better off and more profitable opening hotels in other isolated countries, like Iran, than to open a hotel in NK... because atleast Iran has many health and religious tourists from the ME region. NK is a ghost country.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #3990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Now, to Alien-X, you said it yourself. The EUChoC has no interest in the DPHK.That's why in my opinion they are objective. What you then described as their "inspection" is not an inspection, that is just looking at a building by random folks. All the web pages list it as an INSPECTION and that means that it was an engineering inspection and that means that they performed all the necessary tests. What you essentially said is that there was no inspection, however all the pages discussing this state that there WAS an inspection, so your speculation is completely in the realm of fantasy.
Oh I see what you did there, you are just playing dumb, Ok. Because otherwise you have some serious issues.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #3991
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Quote:
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And finally, to AltinD, you essentially tell the same thing as Alien-X, that there was no inspection, that the inspection is just an imagination by a few folks who looked at a picture of the building. But there is no data that would support your theory that there was no inspection. On the other hand all the independent pages listing it as an inspection is supporting the notion that there indeed was an inspection. In other words, there is no evidence for there not being an inspection, but there is tons of evidence supporting the fact that there was this inspection..
If there was indeed an inspection, where are the technical and laboratory test datas listed? Where's the report? Hell, where does it says what they did, what samples did they collect, where in the structure, and what measurements did they do on site?

Point me to them please!


.... and 100s or 1000s of pages and blogs in internet quoting the same thing, does not mean anything .... well, unless you're a (I'm leaving it at that )
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Old November 7th, 2012, 07:44 PM   #3992
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Maybe you posted before, but it worths:

First interior photos:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...#slide=1574471

http://www.urbanity.es/foro/rascacie...tml#post610061













My question is, ¿there´re more photos?


¿They couldn´t make more?


For me, are the most expected photos of skyscrapers.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #3993
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All the photos from that visit have already been posted here by three different users.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 01:40 AM   #3994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
As to mrfusion, there is always a chance, as I said in my previous post but in my opinion the chance that the EUChoC report is bias is so low, that its results can be considered fact unless there is similarly trustworthy proof against it. There is no information on any other report, so all other reports and their findings are pure speculation and therefore should be disregarded.
As I said, no one has access to the report anymore, no one know what the exactly what that report said, everyone is quoting the same "source", and that "source" is not necessary crediable.

Quote:
As to the press, the press just doesn't care enough about a building in the DPHK in order to bother themselves with tracking down the engineers that inspected the building.
Really, and you think that is belieable, with dozens of newspaper, many tv channels, each does its own research, and no one, not a single one has a slight interest in making NK looks worse then now, and no one has a slight interest in trying to find out, and explain why someone will bother to repair and open a unrepairable building.

Quote:
The 1990 were a time when the internet was still beginning. They would have to go through several officials in order to track those engineers down.
the press can manage to find 19th century japanese documents to prove japan recognised Diaoyu Island belongs to China. If they know who those inspector are, they will at least track some down.

Quote:
I tried once to ask the state of New York a question and it took a month of waiting for me to get an answer. I asked the NYC port authority a question too, and I never got the answer. I don't believe that the building is of sufficient interest to the press in order for them to go through all of this asking and waiting.
Just how many people works for you, for you to think your experience can be equate to what the media can do.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 01:51 AM   #3995
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This is literally every single news article in history to have ever been published about this building.
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Originally Posted by Lecom View Post
Typical article:

North Korean "Hotel of Torture" Set To Finally Open

The Death Star set amidst Pyongyang's destitute and slum-filled wasteland cityscape is set to open some time in the forseeable future. The hotel has been under construction for a whole bunch of years until it was put on hold, presumably because they ran out of people for daily sacrifice rituals due to famine and general fail.

However, the hotel is finally nearing completion. Take a look at our horribly out-of-date construction photos that show a derelict concrete hunk, though this is no longer the situation. But who cares, you can't tell the difference - you can't even find North Korea on the map, so you'll eat up whatever sensationalist BS we serve you. On this note, we would also like to remind you how terrible North Korean reporting is, especially contrasted with our fair and balanced reporting with no skewed agenda.

The hotel's official name is "Hotel of Doom". Well, maybe it's not, but we don't care enough to ask North Korea for its actual name, so we'll include some bogus sensationalist name in the headline over and over again so it sticks in your mind. Who cares what the North Koreans think, they're the bad guys. The hotel is clearly beyond repair, as confirmed by some obscure commission 15 years ago, but some shifty Egyptians called "Orascom" decided to finish it anyway. They're probably the bad guys from the whole Tahir Square Revolution business, who, upon losing a battle for evil in their homeland, had to commit evil deeds elsewhere.

This report was brought to you by some media outlet that feels that North Korea is not doing a good enough job of discrediting itself on its own
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:05 AM   #3996
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I don't see the obsession with this building?

Does NK really irritate some people so much?
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
If there was indeed an inspection, where are the technical and laboratory test datas listed? Where's the report? Hell, where does it says what they did, what samples did they collect, where in the structure, and what measurements did they do on site?

Point me to them please!
This is what I think, the report must have exist somewhere, and if it is create without bias, and everything is without a doubt the truth, then there is no reason why it is not avaliable.

I understand a report created 25 years ago may not be avaliable online and will never be avaliable in digital form, SSC will never have a chance to see it, but there is no reason why the press/media can't dig it out, the truth is, no one recently can claimed they have access to the report and quote the same thing.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:55 AM   #3998
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They won't 'dig it up' because they don't care enough to. They like being vague, as usual, so that they can continue with their red herring, sensationalist claims about the hotel, and their insults to North Korea.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 02:04 PM   #3999
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Haven't been on the forum for 2 days and I see there is much to be debunked.

1, Patrykus: disagreeing with my opinions about this hotel and presenting your opinions about it is a healthy part of the discussion, however, trying to put me in a negative spotlight by presenting your opinion about points that aren't about the current discussion is a personal assault.

2, Alien X: if you want to state your opinion, do so, but if you want just to flame at me (and saying that I'm dumb is flaming) then you might just as well not post at all here.

3, AltinD: Finally somebody who discusses the topic at hand. I do gathering and translating science articles for a living. The whole publishing of research and experimental material doesn't work like that. A study, or inspection if you will, might have dozens maybe even hundreds of pages and contains much content that only the researchers that wrote it and their professional peers can understand. This is the reason why press conferences are made. In these the authors announce the main results they acquired and explain them. This allows for non professionals understanding the result and for articles of vastly reduced length. All the major science article portals publish an approximately page long article, which I then translate and turn in a half page article. Sometimes they include a link to just an abstract of the study, sometimes they don't include anything like this, and that is nowadays, when all stuff gets posted on the net. In the late 1990 net publishing was relatively rare. What I want to say with all this is that even today it is extremely rare to find articles that also include the full study. If one would ignore all articles that don't include the full study then nearly all info on the net would have to be ignored. The info in the articles is that an inspection was made and I believe it because as a article harvester I know that if one wants his/her webpage or magazine to be successful he/she needs to gather information from credible sources. If one page lists a low quality article it's nothing special. Neither is if two list such an article but if so many as in this case list an article then I believe it speaks a lot about its trustworthiness.

4, Mrfusion: This is how articles work. You get one inspection and one press conference and that is it, that is your source. They don't make several inspections and several press conferences just like that. As to why they don't dig it up. ThatOneGuy explained it well in the first sentence of his latest post - they just don't care. As I explained earlier in this post, they would have to do a lot of digging and some hotel in an isolated country busy trying to create the perfect hell on Earth is just not enough interesting for them to make them do such extensive research. You have to keep in mind that we on this forum and on SSP are the only folks who really care about skyscrapers. The masses often don't even know what's the tallest building in the world or even what's the tallest building in their country. This topic is just not enough interesting to the masses and reporters give the masses only what they want.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #4000
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Just because an article is popular, doesn't mean it's always right.
I mean just look at the 9/11 truth movement. They have millions of pages with the same articles for resources.
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