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Old November 10th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #4001
Kanto
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The 9/11 inside job theory is extraordinary, the fact that the Slaughterhotel is a total engineering failure is not extraordinary. Besides blaming the US government for 9/11 is usable in anti US propaganda because it makes some US people distrust their government. The North Korean people already know that their government considers them replaceable meat even without knowing the truth about the Slaughterhotel. Just as they already know that they can't open their mouths or otherwise they'll go straight to Yodok with the rest of their families.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #4002
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Engineering failure? So let's go an debunk your ridiculous claims:

Types of concrete used for Ryugyong Hotel:
Floors 1-51 - M-450(40MPa)
Floors 52-105 - M-400(35MPa)
Additional reinforcement(Type I and III) was used in the process of floor construction.
Conclusion of the 1990 report: 'The comparison between the test results and dynamic properties obtained in the design showed a very good agreement. It proved that although simplified, the mathematical model used for the design of the building gave acceptable results, even for structural systems of this size and type.'

Another report on the earthquake feasibility and safety says:
'Results from this investigation showed that the supporting structure of the wing part of Ryugyong Hotel building has considerable capacity of strength and ductility.'

Where is your failure now?
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #4003
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Would you be as kind as to tell me where you found all this information?
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:13 PM   #4004
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Does it really matter? I have reports on my hard drive that I had downloaded some time ago but my point here is these kinds of concrete are in the top section of concretes, they can withstand up to 5800PSI. Also, reinforced steel bars are very strong but 'elastic' as well which means they can wind and earthquake compliant and do not make the structure sway too much.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #4005
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Oh yes, it matters. Before you provide sources it is just the rumor of a forumer who likes the building.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #4006
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I thought you dug scientific reports for a living. Apparently you are not doing your job well.
Report links appear on the first page on google.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:22 PM   #4007
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I did not demand multiple inspection and/or multiple press conference, I haven't see one source (I might have miss some you quote), say anything about a quoting from a press conference.

As with "they" don't care, who are "they", I just think is unlikely that every newspaper, every tv stations don't care, as I said, the press/media are very resourceful, they know how to dig.

I do agree most people on the planet probably don't really care about a stupid building in NK, but I do believe, some people in South Korea care, there may be conflicts now, but the citizens still see each other as brothers, and waiting for the day to united. NK's enemy (maybe even friends) probably also interest to dig themselve to verify what you believe are facts or rumurs.

Oh, the press don't care, but most bother to say something about the tour group sveral week ago, most bother to print "Hotel of doom expected to open next year".

I am not saying those inspection/reports are fake or unreliable, I am just surprise no one try to find out a little more.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #4008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krkseg1ops View Post
I thought you dug scientific reports for a living. Apparently you are not doing your job well.
Report links appear on the first page on google.
I have better things to do than to dig up reports about this failure of a building. But very well, I accept the dare. I will look into it.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #4009
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I don't blame you, I also have better things to do than search for something that does not exist.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #4010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
3, AltinD: Finally somebody who discusses the topic at hand. I do gathering and translating science articles for a living. The whole publishing of research and experimental material doesn't work like that. A study, or inspection if you will, might have dozens maybe even hundreds of pages and contains much content that only the researchers that wrote it and their professional peers can understand. This is the reason why press conferences are made. In these the authors announce the main results they acquired and explain them. This allows for non professionals understanding the result and for articles of vastly reduced length. All the major science article portals publish an approximately page long article, which I then translate and turn in a half page article. Sometimes they include a link to just an abstract of the study, sometimes they don't include anything like this, and that is nowadays, when all stuff gets posted on the net. In the late 1990 net publishing was relatively rare. What I want to say with all this is that even today it is extremely rare to find articles that also include the full study. If one would ignore all articles that don't include the full study then nearly all info on the net would have to be ignored. The info in the articles is that an inspection was made and I believe it because as a article harvester I know that if one wants his/her webpage or magazine to be successful he/she needs to gather information from credible sources. If one page lists a low quality article it's nothing special. Neither is if two list such an article but if so many as in this case list an article then I believe it speaks a lot about its trustworthiness.
All that is empty rhetoric that sheds no light to the subject at hand.

The question iis simple: What did they actually do, what tests did they carried out .... as simple as that (and NO, 'they tested' is not the answer)
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Old November 10th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #4011
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http://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct=j&...BgClNFzDIclY4w

This has been posted before on this forum but if you look through the report, it will tell you a lot of things about the structure and its properties.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #4012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
All that is empty rhetoric that sheds no light to the subject at hand.

The question iis simple: What did they actually do, what tests did they carried out .... as simple as that (and NO, 'they tested' is not the answer)
They tested the concrete composition, the straightness of the building and its elevator. That is clearly written in all the articles. If they wouldn't have tested it, there would be no way to determine what they have determined. Btw, one of their three points, the deformation and irregularity of the building can be independently proven (at least on the facade) by pics taken of the hotel.

2, Mrfusion: South Korean people care, however they care about the DPHK in general, the threat it poses to them and the daily human rights abuses over there. They don't care about a skyscraper over there. Even top economy and property journals often have mistakes when writing about skyscrapers. Mistakes that to us skyscrapercitizens seem to be absolute blasphemy. It doesn't surprise me the slightest that nobody cares about a skyscraper in the DPHK enough to do extensive research.

3, Krkseg1ops: I've searched for your articles. Both the one in your link, and the other one about the Earthquake resistance are found only on one single site:

http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/art..._vol5_2789.pdf

http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/art..._vol6_3263.pdf

That alone is suspicious, however one thing, which in my opinion clearly debunks their authenticity is the fact that both of them have North Korean coauthors. Everybody who knows something about North Korea knows that if North Koreans would coauthor an article containing anything negative about the DPHK, they would immediately be sent to Yodok together with their entire families. Other than defectors, North Koreans living in North Korea are among the least trustworthy people in the world. If the government can seriously say such nonsense as that Kim Jong Il controlled weather with his mind or that he wrote thousands of books, then truly everything must be expected from the brutalized citizens of this country who nonstop face the threat of Yodok.

Also, as you said, this is not the first time this article has been floating around here. Here is a quote of another forumer approximately one and a half months ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt
But one of the two authors is indeed North Korean, Chong Su Bom from the "Institute Paek Du San" in Pyongyang. The Wikipedia entry for the Ryougyong says that that it was designed by an organisation called "Baikdoosan Architects & Engineers" (the source is a dead link). Allowing for differences in translation and transliteration, could that be the same as the "Institute Paek Du San"? If so, Chong Su Bom was probably part of the original design team and so would not be in a position to make an impartial assessment of his own work.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #4013
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No Kanto, the reason why those reports have DPRK stamps on them is because nothing can be done there without government oversight. Other than that, they provide hard data on the structure. Do you really think they faked everything? Where are your links to anything else than rubbish which you have kept spitting over the last year or so about this building? Your statements are null, this is my last response to your posts because you are clearly deluded. Over'n'out.

For anyone interested, you can search that insitute page for more reports.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #4014
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If that would be just the name of who let them in there, then it would be the armed forces and border officials of the country, not an institute. Also, there would be government officials listed there too. Because it speaks about an institute it is clear that those North Koreans truly are coauthors. As to your claim that it looks legit, just because it is complicated and is written by an engineer doesn't mean that the facts stated there are the truth. Bob Lazar sounds like a physicist however his stories are still just fairy tales.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 10:16 PM   #4015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
They tested the concrete composition, the straightness of the building and its elevator. That is clearly written in all the articles. If they wouldn't have tested it, there would be no way to determine what they have determined. Btw, one of their three points, the deformation and irregularity of the building can be independently proven (at least on the facade) by pics taken of the hotel.
Did they even visit North Korea? If they did, how did they test it?

At least the other reports are real report, even if you or others have doubts on the authenticify of the findings.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 10:18 PM   #4016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
If that would be just the name of who let them in there, then it would be the armed forces and border officials of the country, not an institute. Also, there would be government officials listed there too. Because it speaks about an institute it is clear that those North Koreans truly are coauthors. As to your claim that it looks legit, just because it is complicated and is written by an engineer doesn't mean that the facts stated there are the truth. Bob Lazar sounds like a physicist however his stories are still just fairy tales.
You're totally delusional if you pretend that a North Korean must not be involved in something done in North Korea (or an American in America, or French in France)
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Old November 10th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #4017
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BTW, I remember now the prior discussion on the three "findings":

1. Concrete composition: All i remember is talk based on some pictures and NOT any actual testing of the concrete. Concrete can be patched up easily, especially if not on load bearing columns

2. The straightness of the building: You can't test this visually, you need lasers and complex measurements ... unless you are referring (it seams so based on your comment how this can be seen from the latest pictures) to bumpy facade, in which case it is just a aesthetic problem, not a structural one

3. The straightness of the elevator: You mean elevator shafts, don't you .... Yeah i remember this, and just like the other above, it needs the same lasers and complex measurements. I think they were referring to visible bumps in the concrete slabs within the shaft, and not the straightness of the shaft itself. While a problem, it can be taken care off, and certainly does not compromise the structural integrity of the building.


Last but not least, if they did proper tests and measurements (which I really doubt they did or were even qualified to do), show us the technical results!
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Old November 10th, 2012, 10:59 PM   #4018
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"to your claim that it looks legit, just because it is complicated and is written by an engineer doesn't mean that the facts stated there are the truth. "

You just contradicted everything you've been trying to say.

Jeez, these naysayers ask for a report by engineers, they get it, and then they say those engineers aren't trustworthy. First Orascom construction says it is fine, then these guys from Macedonia say it is fine, but no, the Chamber of Commerce, with no tangible report, is still right, because they hate North Korea. There's no pleasing these people, is there?

We've shown you a report, but you've shown us nothing except a few vague statements, and that one picture with the red lines. Then you say the report cannot be trusted (Even though there are more European writers than korean writers, and it was published in Rotterdam) I think the only reason so many articles refer to that statement is because it is already spread around so much, people assume it is truth. Plus, they cannot find anything else to say about the building. Plus, it insults North Korea.
And what western article would actually refer to reports saying the concrete is okay? I mean, you know, then they'd be slaves to kim jung un!

In my opinion, the concrete looks fine and decently built, because it is very thick, and mostly seems to be grimy instead of damaged. Most of the crumbling parts were from the edge balconies, and the surface layer of concrete on the edges. All of which were fixed. Warping was probably caused by uneven concrete forms (which doesn't have much effect on the concrete quality), and not the building sagging. It looks quite fine to me ever since those millions of pounds of glass and mechanical equipment were added. If it could not support itself, how could it support all that extra weight?
There is a commieblock near my area that, after about 20-25 years, had its balconies so chipped that it was unsafe to use them. There are holes in them. THAT'S low quality concrete. I'll try to get a picture if I ever pass by there again.

Even so, saying the 'lowest quality concrete' is like saying 'the least powerful bulldozer'
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Old November 11th, 2012, 11:11 AM   #4019
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I never knew Pyongyang looked this good.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 12:26 PM   #4020
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Is that picture taken from the Ryugyong Hotel?
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