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Old November 11th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #4021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
2, Alien X: if you want to state your opinion, do so, but if you want just to flame at me (and saying that I'm dumb is flaming) then you might just as well not post at all here.
I forgot you are the supreme Authority on who can post here.
Get over yourself. I just commented that like always you take parts of my response out of context to try to justify your reasoning. You are the only flamer here because you keep on trying to impose your prejudice on everyone on this thread not with facts but blaming others for supposed attacks when they point out your flaws.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #4022
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Originally Posted by stefanv View Post

Is that picture taken from the Ryugyong Hotel?
Yes, it was.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #4023
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OK, another wave of debunking:

Quote:
Did they even visit North Korea? If they did, how did they test it?

At least the other reports are real report, even if you or others have doubts on the authenticify of the findings.
Of course they visited the DPHK. If they wouldn't visit it they could have not done an inspection. I see you're again trying to persuade me that there was no inspection. That is nonsense in my opinion.

Quote:
You're totally delusional if you pretend that a North Korean must not be involved in something done in North Korea (or an American in America, or French in France)
Am I? If a country wants an objective inspection, they'll let neutral parties do the work. Also, it wouldn't make sense for the DPHK to say negative stuff about their hotel. That would be like shooting yourself in the leg. There is no information about any involvement of DPHK engineers in the EU report. On the other hand the fake report clearly lists DPHK engineers as coauthors. I base what I write on known facts. Involvement of the DPHK in the EU report is just speculation. Involvement of the DPHK in the fake report is proven fact.

Now I tell you a theory of how it may have happened. Note that unlike you I won't claim this is fact. This is only a hypothetical theory, a speculation if you will, and I'm posting it only to show you that people can speculate in other directions than you do and this speculation may be just as probable, or even more probable than your speculation. I speculate that the reason why they allowed an independent inspection by the EUChoC might have been an error caused by bad communication between the different propaganda officials. Some officials hired some Macedonian engineers and together with their own engineers they fabricated a fake report. However other propaganda officials weren't informed about this and so they thought the report is genuine. This meant that they were certain that the report of the EUChoC will end positively for the Slaughterhotel. However its results were very different from the fake report and I bet that if this was the case both of these groups of officials ended in Yodok. Though again I'll note that this is just my speculation, just like your speculation.

Quote:
1. Concrete composition: All i remember is talk based on some pictures and NOT any actual testing of the concrete. Concrete can be patched up easily, especially if not on load bearing columns
This is a rather disturbing comment because it puts forward the notion that you are willing to use outright lies in this discussion. I never ever said that the pictures of the crumbling facade are the reason why I consider the concrete to be weak. I only noted that the facade looks worse than facades exposed to the elements for a similar time here in Slovakia. The entire fact that the concrete is weak is based solely on the findings of the EUChoC inspection. All the articles including this report clearly state that one of their findings was the very poor quality of the concrete used in the hotel.

Quote:
2. The straightness of the building: You can't test this visually, you need lasers and complex measurements ... unless you are referring (it seams so based on your comment how this can be seen from the latest pictures) to bumpy facade, in which case it is just a aesthetic problem, not a structural one

3. The straightness of the elevator: You mean elevator shafts, don't you .... Yeah i remember this, and just like the other above, it needs the same lasers and complex measurements. I think they were referring to visible bumps in the concrete slabs within the shaft, and not the straightness of the shaft itself. While a problem, it can be taken care off, and certainly does not compromise the structural integrity of the building.


Last but not least, if they did proper tests and measurements (which I really doubt they did or were even qualified to do), show us the technical results!
Again, your theory that there was no inspection by the EUChoC is either an outright lie or simple ignoring of all the evidence on the internet that such an inspection took place. As to the photos. I did clearly say in my previous post that only the deformation of the facade can be proven from the pics, not the deformation of the elevator shafts. Also, I never said that the deformation of the facade is a structural problem. Only the weak concrete and the irreparability are structural problems. and no, I wasn't referring to recent pics. I was referring to pics taken before Orascom started to clad the building.

And as to the full text of the report, I already explained that it might very well not even be on the internet and the EUChoC has better things to do than to dig through old archival data just because a dude from Slovakia asked for it. Accept the fact, probably none of us will ever see the full report. That of course doesn't mean it isn't legit, or as you like to say that it doesn't exist.

Quote:
"to your claim that it looks legit, just because it is complicated and is written by an engineer doesn't mean that the facts stated there are the truth. "

You just contradicted everything you've been trying to say.

Jeez, these naysayers ask for a report by engineers, they get it, and then they say those engineers aren't trustworthy. First Orascom construction says it is fine, then these guys from Macedonia say it is fine, but no, the Chamber of Commerce, with no tangible report, is still right, because they hate North Korea. There's no pleasing these people, is there?

We've shown you a report, but you've shown us nothing except a few vague statements, and that one picture with the red lines. Then you say the report cannot be trusted (Even though there are more European writers than korean writers, and it was published in Rotterdam) I think the only reason so many articles refer to that statement is because it is already spread around so much, people assume it is truth. Plus, they cannot find anything else to say about the building. Plus, it insults North Korea.
And what western article would actually refer to reports saying the concrete is okay? I mean, you know, then they'd be slaves to kim jung un!

In my opinion, the concrete looks fine and decently built, because it is very thick, and mostly seems to be grimy instead of damaged. Most of the crumbling parts were from the edge balconies, and the surface layer of concrete on the edges. All of which were fixed. Warping was probably caused by uneven concrete forms (which doesn't have much effect on the concrete quality), and not the building sagging. It looks quite fine to me ever since those millions of pounds of glass and mechanical equipment were added. If it could not support itself, how could it support all that extra weight?
There is a commieblock near my area that, after about 20-25 years, had its balconies so chipped that it was unsafe to use them. There are holes in them. THAT'S low quality concrete. I'll try to get a picture if I ever pass by there again.

Even so, saying the 'lowest quality concrete' is like saying 'the least powerful bulldozer'
Nope, I haven't contradicted a single word of what I said. Your notion that a report is genuine if it is longer and written in complicated language is complete nonsense. How complicated and long a text is doesn't tell anything about its authenticity. Again, take Bob Lazar for example. He speaks like a scientist and provides a complicated explanation how flying saucers work. However all scientists that I've ever seen looking at his claims say it's garbage. The Macedonian/North Korean report completely buried itself by the fact that it has North Korean coauthors. No North Korean living in North Korea will ever tell you something negative about their country if he doesn't want to go to Yodok. As long as there is a single North Korean coauthor the whole report is as untrustworthy as is just possible for a report to be. And I'd also like to note that there are more of them. And no, being objective doesn't mean being a slave of Kim Jong Un.

Also, you often like to use already debunked facts. For example, the concrete of the building is not thick. I have compared the concrete arround the windows to both photos of concrete cores, of concrete facades and of windows on buildings around me and the thickness of it is 25-30 cm on the center part and approximately 20 cm at the wings. 25-30 cm is the average thickness of a core of a skyscraper. It has also some internal concrete columns too, however other buildings have these too. To put the long story short, there is absolutely no evidence that would suggest the building is anything thicker than the average of skyscrapers. Yes, it has a thicker perimeter structure than most concrete buildings, however this tells absolutely nothing about its strength, it just tells that the building's strength is focused on the perimeter, which is understandable for a building of these dimensions (long thin wings and a thin central section). Though I agree with you on one thing, the weather damage to the facade was completely reparable and also was completely repaired. As to how it can hold the cladding, well, even the most pessimistic engineers of real reports expected that the minimum necessary for the building to collapse would be full cladding + full occupancy. And that is the minimum. However that still means that the building is unsafe.

Btw, Alien-X, disagreeing with what one posts is not flaming, however using uncivilized words like "dumb" is
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Old November 11th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #4024
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It was edited and published in Rotterdam, and written by two macedonian scientists, and only one korean.

You don't know the extent of what the korean guy may/may not have lied about. They used very specific information about the concrete and structure in that report, and it seems pretty well built. No reason to say it's not unlike an average concrete structure. What if the korean guy is not outright lying, but just not including some errors? Like the bad forming? You cannot say, without an unfair assumption of North Koreans.
If this concrete is, in fact, low quality, I am astounded that it lasted so well against 15 years of harsh weather. The concrete on the straight sides of the building looks pretty good, actually. Just a bit dirty, if anything. (Sloped sides are a different story)

Also, evidence of misplacement in concrete forms:

The octagon-shaped structure in the middle of the floor has a warped side on the left. It is horozontal, and does not support any weight. Concrete doesn't just warp in on itself magically, so bad forms must have been placed. It could be good concrete, but with bad placement.

Also, I've noticed from that picture, that the elevator shafts are actually located directly behind the curved wall with the two silver vertical lines, which are in the middle of the building. Should be useful to know.

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; November 11th, 2012 at 05:58 PM.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #4025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
The octagon-shaped structure in the middle of the floor has a warped side on the left.
That warped/curved section is probably intentional. Notice there is a gap on the right where there are presumably steps leading up to this structure. If the gap wasn't there, then that side would also have to be curved or angled.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #4026
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Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
It was edited and published in Rotterdam, and written by two macedonian scientists, and only one korean.

You don't know the extent of what the korean guy may/may not have lied about. They used very specific information about the concrete and structure in that report, and it seems pretty well built. No reason to say it's not unlike an average concrete structure. What if the korean guy is not outright lying, but just not including some errors? Like the bad forming? You cannot say, without an unfair assumption of North Koreans.
If this concrete is, in fact, low quality, I am astounded that it lasted so well against 15 years of harsh weather. The concrete on the straight sides of the building looks pretty good, actually. Just a bit dirty, if anything. (Sloped sides are a different story)

Also, evidence of misplacement in concrete forms:

The octagon-shaped structure in the middle of the floor has a warped side on the left. It is horozontal, and does not support any weight. Concrete doesn't just warp in on itself magically, so bad forms must have been placed. It could be good concrete, but with bad placement.

Also, I've noticed from that picture, that the elevator shafts are actually located directly behind the curved wall with the two silver vertical lines, which are in the middle of the building. Should be useful to know.
Both reports were published on a Rotterdam conference. One had 3 North Koreans and 2 Macedonians as authors, the other one had 1 North Korean and 2 Macedonians as authors. However, as long as at least one of the authors was North Korean, the report is 100% untrustworthy because we can assume that those North Korean engineers didn't want to end up in Yodok. As to the point that it wasn't proven that he/they are lying, it also wasn't proven that they speak the truth. Just as these things aren't proven one way or another in 99,99999% of articles on the internet. This means that other criteria have to be used for determination of what is info and what is garbage. The EUChoC has nothing to gain and nothing to loose with saying either that the hotel is good or that the hotel is garbage. On the other hand the DPHK has much to gain by saying it is good and much to loose by saying it is garbage. Also, the EUChoC is a trustworthy developed world institution. On the other hand the DPHK is the single least trustworthy country in the world.

As to the lobby, we have no idea in what state it was before Orascom resumed construction on the hotel, so we can't judge the building based on it. Also, as the fake report being detailed, again I will tell you that detail doesn't mean anything. Bob Lazar speaks in detail, yet he speaks untru garbage. And while you think that the concrete performed very well during the on hold period, I on the other hand, based on observing similar buildings on hold, think that it performed very poorly.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 09:08 PM   #4027
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I explained why you can't judge it based on the sole fact that it has some north korean input. They could be telling the truth, but leaving out parts, for all we know. The information on the report makes enough sense to me, judging on how the building looks in pictures. But you think it's wrong because they're the bad guys slaves to glorious leader.
These guys aren't Bob Lazar, and they don't claim fantasy things like flying saucers or whatnot, or other pseudo-scientists like Richard Gage. Those guys come up with silly theories and alter 'evidence' to fit their agenda, whereas the Rotterdam guys just give info.
Also, I do not see any reason why Rotterdam and the Macedonian scientists would be supportive of this building, and would bother writing a report on it at all? What can they gain from this building? If it is for publicity, I do not see how North Korea is going to attract people to like this building if they barely let any businesses from outside the country in? Plus, it was published in 1992, before it was abandoned, so they didn't write it to show everyone that the concrete is not as decayed as it looks. Macedonia and Holland are neutral countries, so they could just be writing it for the sake of having interesting info. That is the job of such a scientist, after all.

The COC doesn't need the building for gain, but they're not going to say anything positive about it because, you know...it belongs to the bad guys.

You claim it is fake. Tell me how you're going to get any information out of North Korea without koreans having some input? What are they gonna do, send spies to test the concrete? And if a North Korean said something relatively positive about it it's obviously wrong, because North Koreans are the bad guys and everything they have is evil. Why would a bad guy say something good if they're bad?

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Old November 11th, 2012, 09:56 PM   #4028
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bllah bllah, inspection finding .... can you please tell us exactly what they did? We are only hearing vague words, nothing concrete (PUN INTENDED)

It's very simple boi: What tests did they do precisely, and what where the results!

.... until you have those informations, better stay quiet, and stop embarracing yourself even further.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:17 AM   #4029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiddle View Post
That warped/curved section is probably intentional. Notice there is a gap on the right where there are presumably steps leading up to this structure. If the gap wasn't there, then that side would also have to be curved or angled.
I agree that curved section on the left can't possibly be an error in forming the concrete, it must be curved for a reason.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:21 AM   #4030
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Yeah, you're probably right, actually.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 04:26 AM   #4031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Both reports were published on a Rotterdam conference. One had 3 North Koreans and 2 Macedonians as authors, the other one had 1 North Korean and 2 Macedonians as authors. However, as long as at least one of the authors was North Korean, the report is 100% untrustworthy because we can assume that those North Korean engineers didn't want to end up in Yodok.
But you don't even know who are the authors of the report you quoted, and the people that wrote it can just be as bias. (strictly speaking, you didn't even quote any reports, you quote articles that did not even claim to quote directly from the report).

Quote:
The EUChoC has nothing to gain and nothing to loose with saying either that the hotel is good or that the hotel is garbage.
It depends on who fund the inspections.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:22 AM   #4032
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Wow.. this whole conversation is getting a bit daft..

At the end of the day, the whole thing is pointless as EVERYONE is basing their arguments on guessing and probability.

No-one can possibly know the condition of this building, how it was built nor to what extent it has been restored.

DPRK is one of the most secretive countries in the world - everyone needs to remember that every single thing we are seeing is what the government officials want us to see.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #4033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lau View Post
Maybe you posted before, but it worths:

First interior photos:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...#slide=1574471

http://www.urbanity.es/foro/rascacie...tml#post610061













My question is, ┐there┤re more photos?


┐They couldn┤t make more?


For me, are the most expected photos of skyscrapers.
Wow, it's so 1980s! Definitely futuristic for North Korean standards.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 08:55 PM   #4034
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Wow, it's so 1980s! Definitely futuristic for North Korean standards.
How old are you?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 11:48 PM   #4035
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Old enough to remember the reason they wanted to build this was to compete with some South Korean hotel built in Singapore. Why you ask?
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Old November 13th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #4036
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Few people seem to have noticed this detail, but I really like that triangular horizontal truss pattern of the ceiling. I hope it will be incorporated into the finished interior, and not just covered up in ceiling tiles.
Also, one of the reasons, in my opinion, that there haven't been any fittings, pipes, or lighting installed on the ceiling yet is because according to pictures on google Earth, the ceiling structure was only recently just finished. It begs the question as to how the progress in the interior of the actual tower itself is going.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:15 AM   #4037
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the argument against the Hotel has nothing and everything to do with the fact that they are North Koreans. Yes, they are secretive and not to be trusted, which lowers the credibility of the report, regardless of being written in Rotterdam.

Now, as you mentioned, it looks fine to you, but look at the finishing and the craftsmanship of the product. If the contractor isn't even able to provide a good product, which would be the easiest thing to manage is bad, then what makes you believe the structural integrity is better?

You argue that the structure is able to handle the curtain wall but you can look at the Harmon Hotel in Las Vegas, which does the same thing but is structurally unsound. A structurally unsound building can take dead and live loads to a certain point before it becomes a danger, particularly in high winds and seismic activity...especially in a skyscraper. You can look at the Hyatt Regency disaster and even the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge; both projects were sound until they failed.

I'm not trying to single you out, since everyone is entitled to their opinions, but a lot of people who argue for it are really blind and infatuated with the building just because it is a skyscraper. I like towers for aesthetic and functional issues, but realize that any structure is built to protect people from harm and not the opposite.

Really, I may have just joined Skyscrapercity, but I've browsed the site many years before that and the majority of the people here don't understand skyscrapers, cities, engineering, and construction for what they are. Yes, people here have passions and hobbies for skyscrapers, but just reading the comments, many sound immature and unrealistic with no concept of reality.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:21 AM   #4038
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the argument against the Hotel has nothing and everything to do with the fact that they are North Koreans. Yes, they are secretive and not to be trusted, which lowers the credibility of the report, regardless of being written in Rotterdam.

Now, as you mentioned, it looks fine to you, but look at the finishing and the craftsmanship of the product. If the contractor isn't even able to provide a good product, which would be the easiest thing to manage is bad, then what makes you believe the structural integrity is better?

You argue that the structure is able to handle the curtain wall but you can look at the Harmon Hotel in Las Vegas, which does the same thing but is structurally unsound. A structurally unsound building can take dead and live loads to a certain point before it becomes a danger, particularly in high winds and seismic activity...especially in a skyscraper. You can look at the Hyatt Regency disaster and even the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge; both projects were sound until they failed.

I'm not trying to single you out, since everyone is entitled to their opinions, but a lot of people who argue for it are really blind and infatuated with the building just because it is a skyscraper. I like towers for aesthetic and functional issues, but realize that any structure is built to protect people from harm and not the opposite.

Really, I may have just joined Skyscrapercity, but I've browsed the site many years before that and the majority of the people here don't understand skyscrapers, cities, engineering, and construction for what they are. Yes, people here have passions and hobbies for skyscrapers, but just reading the comments, many sound immature and unrealistic with no concept of reality.
I forgot to quote ThatOneGuy
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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:50 AM   #4039
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The shape of the building is pretty much built to combat winds and seismic activity. Those other structures you listed had fatal flaws in their design to begin with, so they collapsed within a year or two after being built, whereas this lasted fine for 15 years being abandoned. So I don't see much of a problem with this tower. Keep in mind that the Vegas building is 30 stories and it looks far lighter than the 105 story Ryugyong. We don't know how this one was built, so we can't automatically assume there are fatal design flaws.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 02:25 AM   #4040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal-Biggles View Post

I'm not trying to single you out, since everyone is entitled to their opinions, but a lot of people who argue for it are really blind and infatuated with the building just because it is a skyscraper. I like towers for aesthetic and functional issues, but realize that any structure is built to protect people from harm and not the opposite.

Really, I may have just joined Skyscrapercity, but I've browsed the site many years before that and the majority of the people here don't understand skyscrapers, cities, engineering, and construction for what they are. Yes, people here have passions and hobbies for skyscrapers, but just reading the comments, many sound immature and unrealistic with no concept of reality.
If looking for a bias in is forum, the logical one to note as most prominent is that of pro-westernized-democracies and anti-north-korean. In my entire life, I don't think I've ever really heard a positive opinion about North Korea. Instead, I've been taught that they're the axis of evil, etc.

But all of that should be irrelevant. Unfortunately, due to the political conflict between ideologies, both sides are wary to allow access to eachother's countries. That doesn't leave much for us to discuss besides bickering with essentially no evidence besides excerpts from a couple of probably equally biased studies. If more pictures were available, we'd likely not be as deep down this rabbit hole.
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