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Old November 17th, 2012, 07:26 AM   #4061
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Old November 17th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #4062
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I haven't been here in some days so there is a lot of debunking to be made. I will start from from where I ended last time, here go my responses:

ThatOneGuy:

Quote:
I explained why you can't judge it based on the sole fact that it has some north korean input. They could be telling the truth, but leaving out parts, for all we know. The information on the report makes enough sense to me, judging on how the building looks in pictures. But you think it's wrong because they're the bad guys slaves to glorious leader.
These guys aren't Bob Lazar, and they don't claim fantasy things like flying saucers or whatnot, or other pseudo-scientists like Richard Gage. Those guys come up with silly theories and alter 'evidence' to fit their agenda, whereas the Rotterdam guys just give info.
Also, I do not see any reason why Rotterdam and the Macedonian scientists would be supportive of this building, and would bother writing a report on it at all? What can they gain from this building? If it is for publicity, I do not see how North Korea is going to attract people to like this building if they barely let any businesses from outside the country in? Plus, it was published in 1992, before it was abandoned, so they didn't write it to show everyone that the concrete is not as decayed as it looks. Macedonia and Holland are neutral countries, so they could just be writing it for the sake of having interesting info. That is the job of such a scientist, after all.

The COC doesn't need the building for gain, but they're not going to say anything positive about it because, you know...it belongs to the bad guys.

You claim it is fake. Tell me how you're going to get any information out of North Korea without koreans having some input? What are they gonna do, send spies to test the concrete? And if a North Korean said something relatively positive about it it's obviously wrong, because North Koreans are the bad guys and everything they have is evil. Why would a bad guy say something good if they're bad?
Actually, you can judge it based on that fact because it clearly shows that an extremely untrustworthy and maximally involved body was a coauthor of the study. That in itself makes the study just a piece of propaganda. I call it fake because, and with that you'll surely agree with, one of the two reports has to be fake, cause their findings are completely different. Your pro-slaughterhotel report is the one on anly one webpage and it also is the one that is partially made by the DPHK, to suit the needs of the DPHK. Because of this I consider your pro-slaughterhotel study just a piece of propaganda, not a real study. As to Bob Lazar, his claim is more extraordinary than the claim of your report, however he also is a more trustworthy than North Koreans praising their country because he doesn't have to fear Yodok. As to rotterdam, it doesnpt have anything to do with the report, it is only the place where it was published. The Macedonians and North Koreans made the report. Why would the Macedonians help the DPHK with their propaganda? This is the place where bribery comes into play. Nobody has anything to gain by declaring the Slaughterhotel unsafe, however the DPHK has a lot to gain if it will be declared safe. Gains make ruthless people like the DPHK government willing to pay. Of course this about the bribery is just speculation, I said it only to disprove your idea that the Macedonians have to be honest. And finally as to input, of course they can let inspectors to do freely whatever they want, therefore there is no proof that the EU report was coauthored by North Koreans and besides, the North Koreans who would contribute to a report with such findings would surely be cut into shreds in Yodok. To put the long story short, a report coauthored by North Koreans about this hotel is less trustworthy than John Lear's drawings of aliens and flying saucers.

AltinD

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bllah bllah, inspection finding .... can you please tell us exactly what they did? We are only hearing vague words, nothing concrete (PUN INTENDED)

It's very simple boi: What tests did they do precisely, and what where the results!

.... until you have those informations, better stay quiet, and stop embarracing yourself even further.
I fear your lust for perfect documentation is rather naive. You see, there is no way to document everything. If you get your documentation of the tests you can continue to ask if the engineers did them right, if they were focusing on them well, if their computers weren't infected with a virus, if they slept well and this can go into infinity. Chasing details into infinity is not what makes a report trustworthy. We have all the info we need. We know that there was an INSPECTION and we know what it found out. More we do not need to know. What we know about the report is nothing less than what we learn from nearly all articles on the internet.

Mrfusion:

Quote:
But you don't even know who are the authors of the report you quoted, and the people that wrote it can just be as bias. (strictly speaking, you didn't even quote any reports, you quote articles that did not even claim to quote directly from the report).
I know they are North Koreans and therefore I know they have to live in fear of Yodok. therefore I know they are not trustworthy.

ThatOneGuy

Quote:
The shape of the building is pretty much built to combat winds and seismic activity. Those other structures you listed had fatal flaws in their design to begin with, so they collapsed within a year or two after being built, whereas this lasted fine for 15 years being abandoned. So I don't see much of a problem with this tower. Keep in mind that the Vegas building is 30 stories and it looks far lighter than the 105 story Ryugyong. We don't know how this one was built, so we can't automatically assume there are fatal design flaws.
But the Slaughterhotel was 15 years with greatly reduced weight and still is with reduced weight compared to a finished and occupied building. Also, you can't base whether a building is "heavy" or "light" based on photos of the exterior because from these photos yhe only thing you see is the perimeter structure, you don't see the internal structure. for example the Twin Towers had a far stronger and far heavier perimeter structure than the new 1WTC, however the new 1WTC is far stronger than the Twins because it has a tremendous core while the Twins had only a standard core.

AltinD:

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So you call others bias and unrealistic, yet you call the structure failling and non-safe just because it is in North Korea? Do you even listen to yourselff?

As for the 2nd jewel, that the structure is unsafe because the concrete craftsmanship isn't pretty, while it may be smth to attract further attention, it means nothing technically, cause that is caused by not well aligned formwork or cosmetic weather demage, none of which has anything to do with the structural integrity of the buioding ....... if you were in the bussines OR simply an enthusiast who has whitnessed and observed dosens if not hundreds of towers and skyscrapers being build, you wouldn't have said that. Another indication, that politics and not construction is your priority (not that it wasn't clear from the tone of your posts anyway)
Don't bully CardinalBiggles, he's right. I read your post and came to the conclusion that you didn't read his post. You accuse him of things he has never said. To me CardinalBiggles seems a very intelligent and reasonable forumer.

Scrapernab2:

Quote:
Present: Orascom is repairing everything to the best of thier abilities. No one can seriously argue that they would ignore or cover up structural problems. Anything that led to the building not being usable (even in a limited way) would mean the NK's would get angry and disolve any agreements with Orascom and they would lose whatever deal they had to recoup the money invested.
Not necessarily. The DPHK may very well know that the hotel is of poor quality and based it's contract with Orascom on this fact. It may very well just care about the hotel as a propaganda structure in which safety and functionality are secondary at best. Until we see the contract between the DPHK and Orascom, we can't assume we know what is profitable for Orascom and what isn't.

ThatOneGuy:

Quote:
Orascom is finishing the building, so I don't see a single reason as to why the elevators would be bad in the first place. North Korea built the rest of the crappy elevators in their country, but Orascom is in charge with the rest of the building's construction, most likely using Chinese materials. Chinese building materials are very high quality, such as their elevators, and cladding. And the cladding on this building looks very high quality itself.
And yes, Kempinski is managing the hotel section, and I don't think they would be fine with shoddy elevators.
This is just speculation. The only thing we know is that the elevator shafts are not straight. We know nothing of the quality of the elevators.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #4063
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Does it really matter whether this has been built properly or not?
Who in their right mind would want to go there?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 05:43 PM   #4064
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That's true. Visiting North Korea is both dangerous and immoral. Dangerous because the armed forces of the country have no problem to kill a tourist and immoral because whatever a tourist buys there he/she helps funding the government and its atrocities.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 05:59 PM   #4065
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Goddamn, just stfu, already...
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Old November 17th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #4066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
That's true. Visiting North Korea is both dangerous and immoral. Dangerous because the armed forces of the country have no problem to kill a tourist and immoral because whatever a tourist buys there he/she helps funding the government and its atrocities.
If they kill tourists how are they gonna make money off of them? I doubt even the Kims are that dumb.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 06:36 PM   #4067
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They don't kill tourists, except that one time when it was pretty much accidental. Too much Fox news is to blame. You've seen the articles the West writes about this building, much less the politics there. Western made documentaries are also part of the problem.
N.Korea is poor, so they don't want to be invaded, so they build weapons, and increase labour, but if money comes in to the country, like they're trying to have with, say, the Ryugyong, they will have more money, and less reason to enforce their strict laws. So society there becomes better. Unless Kim likes to kill people for personal pleasure, which I don't think is the case, N. Korea wants money from this building to increase living quality and lower their chance of being invaded.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #4068
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I bet you tell that to yourself every night so you can sleep. Seriously, watch some documentaries. North Korea is truly the Democratic People's Hell of Korea. Kim is a sadistic monster and so is his regime. He wants money only so he can invest in new weapons, propaganda and torture machines. Watch some documentaries about Yodok and then tell me how great that country is
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Old November 17th, 2012, 06:57 PM   #4069
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They send people to Yodok who are unruly to the government. Only food will stop them being unruly, and without money, there is no food. The government is trying to bring in money, therefore increase food, and loyalty to their leader.
I never said it was a great country. Just because I don't mindlessly repeat everything Fox News told me, doesn't mean I like the country.
Literally the only reason they build such big weapons is to prevent being attacked. That can only be done with labour. If they have money, they don't have to build so many weapons, and they don't have to deal with unruly rebels there. People only rebel if they are starved or overworked, and if they have money, they don't have to work as much, therefore society becomes better. N Korea has been building dams and power plants in their country recently to increase the amount of electricity in the country too. This will increase living conditions, and lower hard labour.
The Ryugyong is just another method of bringing in money for the country. More money means less people being disloyal to the government and less chance of being invaded.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #4070
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Sorry but that is total nonsense, you're starting to sound like John Lear. If you'd see some documentaries you would know that they send people to Yodok for pretty much everything. One woman was sent there because her sister was a lover of Kim Jong Il. He has gotten new girls and just out of the evil of his heart he sent her together with her entire family into Yodok.

You quite obviously desperately want to find a reason as to why to like the country, even if it means completely disconnecting from reality. Btw, could we get back to discussing the building please?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 07:40 PM   #4071
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It's not nonsense. It's how it works. And I hate the country, I wish Rage Against The Machine were played to every citizen there for hours straight. You seriously think they are building such massive projects like power plants and the completion of this building to be for nothing but propaganda? No, they want to make money. Why do they want to make money? To stop the citizens revolting against them, and to prevent being invaded. Food will keep the citizens happy. You refuse to leave the idea of the leaders being sociopaths who's only goal is to make money strictly for themselves and to upgrade the death camps to fit more people. But then again, the entire western world fed by Fox refuses to stop believing that.
Because N. Korea are the bad guys. Obviously, the bad guys won't do anything good.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #4072
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So it seems everybody is responsible for their actions except for them. Excuse me, but are you really defending a country with concentration camps? Are you really defending some of the worst mass murderers in the history of this planet? What comes next, will you defend Hitler and Breivik too? I'm quite shocked by seeing you defending mass murderers
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Old November 17th, 2012, 08:30 PM   #4073
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Kanto, did they let you loose again
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Old November 17th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #4074
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So you expect me to just watch how he spits into the face of all the hundreds of thousands innocent people tortured and murdered without a reason in that country? In your post above you only showed that you are no better yourself
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Old November 17th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #4075
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I am not spitting in their faces! Stop bullying me! What's your problem? How am I, in any way, supporting mass murderers? I am telling you what they are doing, I'm not showing my support for the murder of innocent people! Is it impossible to give an unbiased explanation as to what an enemy country is doing with their economy, without being accused of supporting it?
I can't tell you how many times people have called me North Korean shill for merely showing support of their skyscraper!

And it seems you support useless 800m skyscraper projects in a country that has many labourers nearly dead in sweatshops. How can you spit in their faces like that?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 09:53 PM   #4076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
So you expect me to just watch how he spits into the face of all the hundreds of thousands innocent people tortured and murdered without a reason in that country? In your post above you only showed that you are no better yourself


You really do have isssues boi .... serious ones


EDIT: You do realize we discuss skyscrapers here, not politics
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Last edited by AltinD; November 17th, 2012 at 10:52 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 11:38 PM   #4077
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They don't kill tourists, except that one time when it was pretty much accidental. Too much Fox news is to blame. You've seen the articles the West writes about this building, much less the politics there. Western made documentaries are also part of the problem.
N.Korea is poor, so they don't want to be invaded, so they build weapons, and increase labour, but if money comes in to the country, like they're trying to have with, say, the Ryugyong, they will have more money, and less reason to enforce their strict laws. So society there becomes better. Unless Kim likes to kill people for personal pleasure, which I don't think is the case, N. Korea wants money from this building to increase living quality and lower their chance of being invaded.
As far as I have known, NK have killed tourists and it's an undeniable fact. While Norks are starving to death, they would not mind spending tens of millions of dollars on useless giant statues of the dead leaders. We all know NK is run by a group of commie thugs.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:15 AM   #4078
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Wrong. The only tourist ever killed there was a South Korean woman, because she wandered into a military base. Thousands more tourists are killed in other countries, but not one person cares.
There are plenty of homeless starving people in Washington DC yet the government continues to fund the Space Program.
Yes, they're run by commies, what's your point?

Back to the building, now. I'll be posting a render of what I think a finished hotel room would look like.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:22 AM   #4079
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Wrong. The only tourist ever killed there was a South Korean woman, because she wandered into a military base. Thousands more tourists are killed in other countries, but not one person cares.
There are plenty of homeless starving people in Washington DC yet the government continues to fund the Space Program.
Yes, they're run by commies, what's your point?

Back to the building, now. I'll be posting a render of what I think a finished hotel room would look like.
Just because she wondered into the place did not mean they should have shot her and homelesses in US are by their choice. I was talking about Norks(children and adults alike) staved by millions. There are clear differences. The giant statues of dead leaders must be blown up skyhigh someday soon, NK commie stupidies! Like you've said. Back to the topic.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:27 AM   #4080
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You go by the name 'architec', and are posring on an architectural forum, about an architectural structure ...... so for consistency sake, can you just talk about the subject at hand and not politics (provided you have the capability to comprehend what's being said to you)?
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