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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:03 AM   #4121
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but I don't deny they're not trying to do at least something about the squalor they're currently living in. Which they are, because evidence proves to that.
Huh? You have no understanding of the society then.

The people of North Korea CAN'T do anything to bring themselves out of the squalor they're living in. It is impossible for them to do that. They aren't in a capitalist society, they can't "make something of themselves". They earn no money for themselves, all money goes into the hands of the already rich leaders and military who spend it on themselves, their lives and their armoury. How are they doing something about it?


And Altin, why is it there are pages and pages of political squabbling on here and you say nothing, then 1 post from me and you're on it like a fly 'round you know what? Then 2 pages more squabbling and nothing else from you?

Plus all I said was if you're going to make stupid statements about NoKo then at least do some research first (like I've always said and stand-by).

People can their opinion about this building, their opinion about NoKo, but at least do some simple research before harping on like it's some sort of utopia there and we should all leave them alone.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:05 AM   #4122
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Unrelated to the rest of the bullshit on this thread, I found a weird site with some strange vision of the hotel:
http://projectsreview2010.aaschool.a...it=59&name=156
Wow, that is plain weird.
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Thanks billyb; that was an erection to remember.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:38 AM   #4123
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Wow Amazing
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Old November 20th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #4124
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See, now because I wasn't obliged to believe the Western media's theory about this building and the country, people automatically assume I like North Korea. The only thing I like about the country is the architecture. I hate everything else, but I don't deny they're not trying to do at least something about the squalor they're currently living in. Which they are, because evidence proves to that.

As for the concrete, we have absolutely no idea about the quality used, since theories about (non structural integrity damaging) crooked forms in the initial construction, and dirt/grime being the main reasons for your photo looking like it does are as perfectly valid as any other rumour about the building. Especially since there are valid, exact quotes from the construction company, and original largely-European engineering reports (from before the abandonment) that say the concrete was fine. (But of course, you won't trust Orascom, becuase they're doing something good in North korea, which is physically impossible, because, you know, they're bad guys)

I don't find obscure western commissions giving an intangible, extremely vague, 15 year old description of a building they could care less about, that is influenced by South Koreans specializing in business, proper evidence. Just my opinion, though.
I want to finish this. If you so strongly want to believe what the Western media says, be my guest. If you don't spread any rumours about this building, I won't either.
Let me ask you one question and please answer me honestly, are you John Lear? You really sound like him, completely disconnected from reality. You say you hate everything except for architecture, yet you have no problem denying their holocaust by saying that the massacre isn't the fault of the government, that they have no choice, that their poorness is responsible, that they are doing only what they have to do. Also, you don't believe a neutral, well documented engineering report of the building yet you believe a report found on one single web page that was written by, guess who, North Koreans. You accuse everybody of being a hater yet post after post you write essays of conspiracy theories and unconditional love to North Korea.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 03:49 PM   #4125
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Huh? You have no understanding of the society then.

The people of North Korea CAN'T do anything to bring themselves out of the squalor they're living in. It is impossible for them to do that. They aren't in a capitalist society, they can't "make something of themselves". They earn no money for themselves, all money goes into the hands of the already rich leaders and military who spend it on themselves, their lives and their armoury. How are they doing something about it?
The leaders are bringing PYONGYANG out of the average, into the "middle class". Deals with outside companies and outside countrys ARE AGAINST JUCHE! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

Read what real visitors have said. Things are changing. They are doing this building (and many others) and moving forward, and as long as it keeps going in this direction, hopefully the leaders and military will put some resources into the rest of the country to raise the standard of living for all North Koreans.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #4126
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I can't believe this structural integrity back-and forth has gone on for so long. Neither side can prove their argument. We simply don't know enough to come to any conclusion. We are yet to see a study that is both
1) methodical [one that describes what exact testing was done]
2) specific in its findings [not vague statements like "crooked elevators" and "bad concrete"]
3) fully reliable [accredited by international sources]
4) recent [some of the studies cited here are outdated by many years, who knows whether the building deteriorated or was sufficiently refurbished since then?]

Until we have one that fulfills all four, this back-and-forth is pure speculation. Photo analysis by online amateurs don't count. Also we know nothing regarding structural conditions such as concrete quality, durability and earthquake resistance, except for blatant assumptions.

What we DO know is that
1) The project was bankrolled by a highly secretive government that did not disclose much information regarding construction status and practices
2) The project was exposed to the elements for at least 15 years, during which it did not exhibit signs of structural collapse (structural deterioration is possible but we can't know for sure, see lack of comprehensive study above)
3) Much reporting about the project has been clearly biased, from North Korea's refusal of information disclosure to repeated slander in the form of "Hotel of Doom" labels in the Western media
4) Several multi-billion dollar companies, including Western and Middle Eastern ones, deemed the structure worthy of major investment, even despite the country's "high risk" status

Make what you will out of this. Personally, the last point is the reason why I think the project is legitimate and safe, but make your own conclusions without passing your opinions for fact.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:49 PM   #4127
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I disagree with what you call facts:

Quote:
2) The project was exposed to the elements for at least 15 years, during which it did not exhibit signs of structural collapse (structural deterioration is possible but we can't know for sure, see lack of comprehensive study above)
From the photos we don't know anything about the interior structure, however we do know the status of the facade and that was very bad before Orascom restored it. This facade damage alone doesn't mean anything because a facade (with facade I don't mean the perimeter structure, I mean just the outer surface and edges of it, which bare no weight) can be easily restored, which Orascom indeed did. Therefore the fact nothing visible collapsed in 15 years doesn't mean absolutely anything. It doesn't mean that the building performed well and it doesn't mean that the building didn't perform well, it is inconclusive and therefore you can't base your fact on it.

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4) Several multi-billion dollar companies, including Western and Middle Eastern ones, deemed the structure worthy of major investment, even despite the country's "high risk" status
Again I will tell what I have told so many times before. Unless you see their contracts you have absolutely no way of determining the reason why companies like Orascom or Kempinski invested into the project. The mere fact that they invested into it doesn't imply anything and therefore can't be used by you to formulate your fact.

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3) Much reporting about the project has been clearly biased, from North Korea's refusal of information disclosure to repeated slander in the form of "Hotel of Doom" labels in the Western media
I'd like to make one final note that a nickname doesn't mean anything. Just because an article names it the Hotel of Doom doesn't mean that it is biased. It is just a personal expression of the feeling the hotel gives the author of the article. Fact is, everybody who has a heart must have a negative personal opinion about the hotel because it consumed horrendous amounts of money while people were starving in the millions. Just because somebody has an opinion doesn't mean that he is evaluating facts in a biased way, therefore you can't make an assumption that a negative nickname means that an article author is biased.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 10:22 PM   #4128
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You don't even know what 'facade' is (and I stopped reading right there) .... how can you talk about structures?
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Old November 20th, 2012, 10:38 PM   #4129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Let me ask you one question and please answer me honestly, are you John Lear? You really sound like him, completely disconnected from reality. You say you hate everything except for architecture, yet you have no problem denying their holocaust by saying that the massacre isn't the fault of the government, that they have no choice, that their poorness is responsible, that they are doing only what they have to do. Also, you don't believe a neutral, well documented engineering report of the building yet you believe a report found on one single web page that was written by, guess who, North Koreans. You accuse everybody of being a hater yet post after post you write essays of conspiracy theories and unconditional love to North Korea.
My god he was just expressing his opinion!!! You see communism as an outsider of the regime and start saying that it is the most horrible thing in the world ( maybe because of the things that the media is feeding you up with ). Please just stop quarreling on politics and try to focus on the building. Anyway, please don't feel offended by this reply because my intentions were not to annoy anyone.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #4130
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Let me ask you one question and please answer me honestly, are you John Lear? You really sound like him, completely disconnected from reality. You say you hate everything except for architecture, yet you have no problem denying their holocaust by saying that the massacre isn't the fault of the government, that they have no choice, that their poorness is responsible, that they are doing only what they have to do. Also, you don't believe a neutral, well documented engineering report of the building yet you believe a report found on one single web page that was written by, guess who, North Koreans. You accuse everybody of being a hater yet post after post you write essays of conspiracy theories and unconditional love to North Korea.
"are you John Lear"
No, let's not resort to name calling, please.

"completely disconnected from reality"
Maybe Fox News' reality.

"no problem denying their holocaust"
Never said I denied it. Strawman.

"Massacre isn't the fault of the government"
Not once did I say this, nor do I believe it. Nor does that have to do with anything. I just said that north Korea is undergoing modernization, and wants to let western businesses in. That has nothing to do with the killings. (caused by the country being poor, anyway) If the country becomes richer, the government will be happier because less people will revolt (sadly). Again, I 100% dislike this, but it's what's happening and there's nothing anyone here can do.

"That they have no choice"
Again, never said this. Remember, I only list what they are doing. I don't show support for it. I just say WHAT. THEY'RE. DOING. I would prefer a revolution there right now.

"That their poorness is responsible"
Yes, poorness and starvation is what caused the Russian Revolution, which North Korean leaders don't want in their country. Especially a new, 28 year old leader. So they have to raise standards by integrating new modern changes, and letting western businesses in, for their money to pump into society. (Not that I agree with that, but it's what's happening) It;s how communism works, the more money the government has, the more they can use to spread to society and increase living standards. The reason the USSR failed was because they had no more money, so they had to give it up. North Korea doesn't want that.

"Written by Norht Koreans"
But more so by Europeans, and edited/ published in Rotterdam. We do not know the extent of their lying, and don't pretend to know so, because then you'd be lying yourself.

"You don't believe a neutral report"
False, Macedonians and the Dutch are neutral. They got their info from before abandonment of the building. But a report written by a business system run by anti- North Koreans and the South, after abandonment, is not neutral. Maybe it is neutral in the sense that they couldn't care less if they made the building look bad. You assume the Macedonian report is lies, actually, because of some north korean input, regardless if the info makes sense, or not. Nobody knows how much (or even, if,) they're lying, but you assume they do because they're north koreans, and they have to lie about everything, right? (Leading to my conclusion of hate for this building drawing from its location.)

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; November 20th, 2012 at 11:00 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #4131
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Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
The leaders are bringing PYONGYANG out of the average, into the "middle class". Deals with outside companies and outside countrys ARE AGAINST JUCHE! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

Read what real visitors have said. Things are changing. They are doing this building (and many others) and moving forward, and as long as it keeps going in this direction, hopefully the leaders and military will put some resources into the rest of the country to raise the standard of living for all North Koreans.
At least someone understood...
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Old November 21st, 2012, 02:14 AM   #4132
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Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
From the photos we don't know anything about the interior structure, however we do know the status of the facade and that was very bad before Orascom restored it. This facade damage alone doesn't mean anything because a facade (with facade I don't mean the perimeter structure, I mean just the outer surface and edges of it, which bare no weight) can be easily restored, which Orascom indeed did. Therefore the fact nothing visible collapsed in 15 years doesn't mean absolutely anything. It doesn't mean that the building performed well and it doesn't mean that the building didn't perform well, it is inconclusive and therefore you can't base your fact on it.
...That's EXACTLY what I said...

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2) The project was exposed to the elements for at least 15 years, during which it did not exhibit signs of structural collapse (structural deterioration is possible but we can't know for sure, see lack of comprehensive study above)


Quote:
Again I will tell what I have told so many times before. Unless you see their contracts you have absolutely no way of determining the reason why companies like Orascom or Kempinski invested into the project. The mere fact that they invested into it doesn't imply anything and therefore can't be used by you to formulate your fact.
...I didn't imply ANYTHING. I simply said they invested in the structure, or do you want to say that it is not fact that Orascom and Kempinski invested in it? I never even began speculating about why they deemed it worthy of investment. Even if your fringe conspiracy theories are true and they believe that the hotel will collapse, they still deemed it worthy of investment for one reason or another.
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4) Several multi-billion dollar companies, including Western and Middle Eastern ones, deemed the structure worthy of major investment, even despite the country's "high risk" status

Quote:
I'd like to make one final note that a nickname doesn't mean anything. Just because an article names it the Hotel of Doom doesn't mean that it is biased. It is just a personal expression of the feeling the hotel gives the author of the article. Fact is, everybody who has a heart must have a negative personal opinion about the hotel because it consumed horrendous amounts of money while people were starving in the millions. Just because somebody has an opinion doesn't mean that he is evaluating facts in a biased way, therefore you can't make an assumption that a negative nickname means that an article author is biased.
I don't think you know what "bias" means. Let's consult the dictionary:
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bias
an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment
Bias = personal judgment = opinion = feeling, or whatever else you want to call it. If I say green is a better color than blue, I'm biased towards green. If I say that Ugandans are the best people in the world, I'm biased towards Ugandans. If I say that Kenyans are the People of Doom, I'm biased against Kenyans. But then again, what do you know about bias? You repeatedly use the term "Slaughterhotel" in reference to this structure when you try to justify your views. You really use empathy only when it supports your opinion. You had no problem desecrating the murder sites of thousands of people for the sake of tall buildings when you proposed building a Freedom Tower twin on the site of the North Pool at the WTC. You also said that the south memorial pool should be converted to a swimming pool, and called the current memorial "toilets"


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Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Twin Freedom Towers would indeed be the ultimate compromise. There would be twin towers but they would be new towers and not a replica of the old ones. Here I have my final scheme for how it should look like:

[IMG]http://i53.************/i6jiap.jpg[/IMG]
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Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
But no, instead they made the memorial to be two huge toilets They should at least turn them into swimming pools so that they serve at least some purpose since they fail so badly as serving as memorials

Last edited by LeCom; November 21st, 2012 at 02:34 AM.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 02:48 AM   #4133
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Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
The leaders are bringing PYONGYANG out of the average, into the "middle class". Deals with outside companies and outside countrys ARE AGAINST JUCHE! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

Read what real visitors have said. Things are changing. They are doing this building (and many others) and moving forward, and as long as it keeps going in this direction, hopefully the leaders and military will put some resources into the rest of the country to raise the standard of living for all North Koreans.
Agree that deals externally are against Juche, and I hope for everyone's sake that is a sign of the regime softening and changing.

But don't mistake building the Ryugyong and Mansudae as examples of them "moving forward", it isn't. These buildings are being built to try and show the outside world that they are a prosperous, important country who can compete on the world stage. They are also built to give their population the false impression that NoKo is the most impressive country in the world (which is what they're fed from birth).

If anything, building Mansudae is a great example of where they are not moving forwards. Instead of putting that money into creating a more self sufficient economy (crops, power grid etc), they build some tall apartment towers that few people live in and cover them with lights to try and impress.

Your final point hits the nail on the head. We can only hope. I don't see it happening while the elite continue to get away with it - there's no impetus to help the masses when you're living in luxury.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 03:03 AM   #4134
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I think the Ryugyong is a sign of progress, but Mansudae is definitely not. Ryugyong plans to make money, whereas Mansudae is just for show and houses the elite.
What I truly think is a sign of progress is the amount of power plants, dams, and ports, as well as other things, that they have recently started building and completing such as the Huichon power plant, the new reactor at the Yongbyon, and the Tanchon Port. (Despite those things being impressive to build half a century ago for developed countries, for NKorea, they're a sign of definite progress)

Edit: Actually, the thought of a nuclear power plant there freaks me out. You know how their rocket turned out.

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Old November 22nd, 2012, 05:01 AM   #4135
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Edit: Actually, the thought of a nuclear power plant there freaks me out. You know how their rocket turned out.


Actually agree with almost everything you've written - good post, good points.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 07:25 AM   #4136
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I think the Ryugyong is a sign of progress, but Mansudae is definitely not. Ryugyong plans to make money, whereas Mansudae is just for show and houses the elite.
What I truly think is a sign of progress is the amount of power plants, dams, and ports, as well as other things, that they have recently started building and completing such as the Huichon power plant, the new reactor at the Yongbyon, and the Tanchon Port. (Despite those things being impressive to build half a century ago for developed countries, for NKorea, they're a sign of definite progress)

Edit: Actually, the thought of a nuclear power plant there freaks me out. You know how their rocket turned out.
Eh, progress.

I dont mean to sounds like that other guy but if people in the countryside are starving should building a huge hotel really be a priority? ts not as if North Korea was already a hub for tourists neither.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 08:10 AM   #4137
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Eh, progress.

I dont mean to sounds like that other guy but if people in the countryside are starving should building a huge hotel really be a priority? ts not as if North Korea was already a hub for tourists neither.
But the people are staving with or without this hotel.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 04:51 PM   #4138
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But the people are staving with or without this hotel.
Really? Show me one single N. Korean who is starving! Urban legends/myths are fine as long as we do not take them too seriously...

You'd better check this in the meanwhile:

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/north-ko...ng/restaurants

That said, I agree that some poorer N. Koreans may not have access to high quality food and there also could be isolated cases of malnutrition, like in every country or in any major city on this Planet. But using the verb 'starving' is a highly bombastic (and maliciously inaccurate) way to describe the reality on the ground in N. Korea

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Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:41 PM   #4139
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Mostly the elite use those restaurants... But there are a lot of pictures of starving people there, although many were taken during the late 90s famine occurring due to the Soviet collapse and some natural problems. (American sanctions hit them hard as well)
Also, from what I've seen in pictures, the people there look slim, but not skeletal (Unsure of the countryside.) Of course, there won't be any obese people there, but is that a bad thing?

I agree that finishing the Ryugyong may seem like a waste when people are starving, but the government cannot produce food without money in the first place, and they want this building to make money. Same with the power plants and ports. Spending the amount of money used on this building to feed all the people there would feed them for what, a year or two, at most? Also, these projects might probably inspire people there to work harder, and bring their GDP up, possibly.
Once the hotel is occupied by Kempinski, and Orascom establishes their phone service, North Korea might allow even more rich western companies to become tenants in the Ryugyong, so that they can make more money. It would be a smart move for them.

Mansudae was totally a step in the wrong direction.

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; November 22nd, 2012 at 10:56 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 12:00 AM   #4140
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Really? Show me one single N. Korean who is starving! Urban legends/myths are fine as long as we do not take them too seriously...
You don't see any pictures of starving North Koreans because no visitor is taken to parts of NoKo where they live. God you must be really naive if you think a tourist or media rep (who are completely controlled on where to go) is going to be taken to areas of poverty and hunger and show the country off in it's worst light.

Rather than you spouting lonely planet (great source of information, a tourist book, written by people taken on a tour by NoKo representatives... come on) maybe you should read some of the reports from actual citizens of NoKo who managed to escape, the ones living their entire lives in prisons or working every day in the fields.

Some people are so naive to the situation in that country, you seem to think it is some sort of media hype just so you don't need to face the reality.

The USA is shipping North Korea 20,000 metric tons of food every month. Why do they ask for this is no-one is starving?

Wake up.
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