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Old November 23rd, 2012, 12:23 AM   #4141
UjaiDidida
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 12:30 AM   #4142
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You'd think with the amount of awesome pictures this hotel is in, like that one, they were all taken by propaganda agencies, but can the building really help but look awesome?
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:05 AM   #4143
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I can see the lift is not straight
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 01:31 PM   #4144
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Well, this will be again a long post, first to ThatOneGuy:

Quote:
"are you John Lear"
No, let's not resort to name calling, please.
John Lear is not a swear word. It is a normal name that I used only to compare his opinions with yours because I think you have a lot in common with him.

Quote:
"completely disconnected from reality"
Maybe Fox News' reality.
Fox News, while not the perfect place for news is still a billion times more credible than North Korean propaganda which has no problem seriously stating that their leader controls weather with his thoughts.

Quote:
"Massacre isn't the fault of the government"
Not once did I say this, nor do I believe it. Nor does that have to do with anything. I just said that north Korea is undergoing modernization, and wants to let western businesses in. That has nothing to do with the killings. (caused by the country being poor, anyway) If the country becomes richer, the government will be happier because less people will revolt (sadly). Again, I 100% dislike this, but it's what's happening and there's nothing anyone here can do.
You said it again, in your opinion the poorness of the country is responsible for all the death and suffering and not the government. That is plain and simply disgusting.

Quote:
"That they have no choice"
Again, never said this. Remember, I only list what they are doing. I don't show support for it. I just say WHAT. THEY'RE. DOING. I would prefer a revolution there right now.
But you just said that their poorness is responsible. They didn't choose to be poor, they are poor because of their political structure, so you are contradicting yourself.

Quote:
"That their poorness is responsible"
Yes, poorness and starvation is what caused the Russian Revolution, which North Korean leaders don't want in their country. Especially a new, 28 year old leader. So they have to raise standards by integrating new modern changes, and letting western businesses in, for their money to pump into society. (Not that I agree with that, but it's what's happening) It;s how communism works, the more money the government has, the more they can use to spread to society and increase living standards. The reason the USSR failed was because they had no more money, so they had to give it up. North Korea doesn't want that.
Here you show a total lack of understanding of the country. You should really watch some documentaries. They don't let people suffer because they have no choice, they let them suffer because they want to see them suffer. Kim and his friends are sadistic psychopats, but if you would watch some documentaries instead of your John Lear style "research" you would know that.

Quote:
"Written by Norht Koreans"
But more so by Europeans, and edited/ published in Rotterdam. We do not know the extent of their lying, and don't pretend to know so, because then you'd be lying yourself.
This is a lie, you have no clue of who did the major part of the report, nor does it matter, if North Koreans are involved it immediately becomes clear what the report will say. The only fact that matters is that there ARE North Korean coauthors and that alone means the report is less credible than the Dulce Papers.

Quote:
"You don't believe a neutral report"
False, Macedonians and the Dutch are neutral. They got their info from before abandonment of the building. But a report written by a business system run by anti- North Koreans and the South, after abandonment, is not neutral. Maybe it is neutral in the sense that they couldn't care less if they made the building look bad. You assume the Macedonian report is lies, actually, because of some north korean input, regardless if the info makes sense, or not. Nobody knows how much (or even, if,) they're lying, but you assume they do because they're north koreans, and they have to lie about everything, right? (Leading to my conclusion of hate for this building drawing from its location.)
It was only published on a Dutch conference, so they have absolutely nothing to do with that fake report. As to the Macedonians, they could have been easily bribed by the DPHK, since the DPHK has a reason to bribe in order to make the hotel appear OK. On the other hand, nobody has anything to gain from the hotel being considered unsafe. Besides, that is not the point. The point is that the EUChoC is a large and rich institution, far bigger and richer than a Macedonian university or institute and therefore far more expensive to bribe. That together with the fact that nobody gets anything from the Slaughterhotel being declared unsafe makes it in my opinion clear which report is true and which is fake.

Now to LeCom. This is what you said and this is what I debunked:

Quote:
Personally, the last point is the reason why I think the project is legitimate and safe
As to bringing up old ideas of mine from 1 and a half year ago that have absolutely nothing in common with this building is plain and simple trolling. And btw, if you would read all about that old idea of mine you would have known that I wasn't criticizing the 9/11 victims, I was criticizing the memorial pools because I wanted something better for the victims and that twin tower should have been a memorial tower to the victims. Criticizing a memorial and proposing a better one is a sign of respect for the victims, so your trolling has absolutely no point

To CompanyEE, I completely agree with Ooh. The tourist tours only show you what the government wants you to see and can in no way be considered a source for information about the country.

Now one more time we go to ThatOneGuy a bit:

Quote:
I agree that finishing the Ryugyong may seem like a waste when people are starving, but the government cannot produce food without money in the first place, and they want this building to make money. Same with the power plants and ports. Spending the amount of money used on this building to feed all the people there would feed them for what, a year or two, at most? Also, these projects might probably inspire people there to work harder, and bring their GDP up, possibly.
Once the hotel is occupied by Kempinski, and Orascom establishes their phone service, North Korea might allow even more rich western companies to become tenants in the Ryugyong, so that they can make more money. It would be a smart move for them.
If you haven't seen their contract you can not know whether they are making any money out of it or whether the only thing they achieve with it, the only thing they ever wanted to achieve with it, is that there is a massive propaganda monument to help them keep their people at bay. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm only saying that without seeing their contract we just can't know.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 04:12 PM   #4145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UjaiDidida View Post
Ten quid says that there's a giant laser hidden in there and that North Korea will blow up the moon in the near future.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 05:44 PM   #4146
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Nah, Seoul is closer
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 05:47 PM   #4147
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So about Orascom and kempinski : '...the only thing they ever wanted to achieve with it, is that there is a massive propaganda monument to help them keep their people at bay."
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 06:11 PM   #4148
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I talked about North Korea, not about Orascom or Kempinski and I mentioned the speculative nature of all guessing without seeing the contract, if you would quote the full paragraph, you would see that:

Quote:
If you haven't seen their contract you can not know whether they are making any money out of it or whether the only thing they achieve with it, the only thing they ever wanted to achieve with it, is that there is a massive propaganda monument to help them keep their people at bay. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm only saying that without seeing their contract we just can't know.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:45 PM   #4149
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Yeah, but the post you quoted was talking about the companies, why otherwise even you would taslk about making money?

Though iss very simple:

1. Orascom get in return the GSM Network in the country
2. Kempinski get paid to manage the hotel (but whom, NoKo or Orascom, or both, we don't know)
3. When the deal was first announced, there was another aspect tht was overlooked since. MINING RIGHTS in the country
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:55 PM   #4150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
If you haven't seen their contract you can not know whether they are making any money out of it or whether the only thing they achieve with it, the only thing they ever wanted to achieve with it, is that there is a massive propaganda monument to help them keep their people at bay. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm only saying that without seeing their contract we just can't know.
"I'm only saying that without seeing their contract we just can't know." Then why on Earth are you bringing up your theory of the "massive propaganda purposes" development if we can't know anyway? Why not just leave it at the "we can't know without seeing the contract" part? Why the unfounded speculation?
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:14 PM   #4151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeCom View Post
"I'm only saying that without seeing their contract we just can't know." Then why on Earth are you bringing up your theory of the "massive propaganda purposes" development if we can't know anyway? Why not just leave it at the "we can't know without seeing the contract" part? Why the unfounded speculation?
Because you and a few other forumers bring in your speculative theories. I want to show that both sides can make speculations and through that I want to prove that nothing can be proven through speculations. One thing I'd like to note is that I at least clearly note when I am speculating, unlike some people here who declare their speculation as fact.

As to AltinD, the post I quoted was talking about North Korea. I was talking about North Korea. It is clear that a non-government company doesn't care about propaganda, they only care about money. Reasonable countries care about money, it's even their duty to care and improve the living standard of their citizens, however North Korea cares only about keeping their leader and his chosen ones in power and brutaly opress all possible, or even imaginary opposition.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:23 PM   #4152
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Will they ever finish this building?
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:25 PM   #4153
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wow...its massive,
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 10:58 PM   #4154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dars-dm View Post
Will they ever finish this building?
Yes.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:24 PM   #4155
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I'm bored of this. Why should I bother, it's not like anyone believes you, anyway.

Can't debunk opinions or strawman arguments, either.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:29 PM   #4156
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You can't debunk it because it is the truth. You apparently have run out of your DPHK love excuses
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:41 PM   #4157
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You believe it is the truth. "The leaders are forcing them to work, not because they have to, but because they WANT to see them suffer."


I told you what I have to say. N Korea is modernizing and becoming better, even if it is just a bit better. You can't deny anything I said is true without using your own personal emotion and anti-korean dogma. You might think it is a coincidence that all this modernization is occurring all at once, since a new leader showed up, and that my neutral responses (yes, neutral against the west too,) are nkorean propaganda and that I am lying because I didn't enslave myself to believing everything Uncle Sam wants me to believe about his enemies. But I can't disprove other people's personal opinions. You say we don't know anything, when you yourself have not provided anything real to support your argument, but whatever. Even your pal ooh agreed that North Korea is modernizing, even in the slightest. Keep watching Fox and Glenn Beck, I really don't care.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:41 PM   #4158
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Well, one thing's for sure though. This'll take the award for the world's most uninhabitated skyscraper once it's finished. North Korean hotels are creepily empty already because no one can afford to travel, and adding another 3000 to 6000 rooms won't help.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:46 PM   #4159
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Of course people can afford to travel there. It's not like locals will rent rooms. The hotels are for foreigners. If they continue to open up, and loosen their grip on society some more, I guarantee the rooms will not only fill up, but form a waiting list, as well.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:59 AM   #4160
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South Korea and Chinese visitors alone would have fill those room, when NK open up.
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