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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:27 PM   #4301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal-Biggles View Post
People here have an autistic or some stupid fetish with this building for no reason other than it is North Korea. The defense of a building based on shoddy reports of market demand, and a untrustworthy report seems a bit out there from just a Skyscraper hobbyist.

As I said before, with a secretive government and impoverished economy, it seems like a long stretch to believe that there is demand from the outside to build a supertall hotel other than propaganda.
I feel the opposite, debates about its structures aside, a lot of people seems to hate this building simply because it's North Korean. I bet if the exact same building is built in Vegas those naysayers will praise it. Regarding the structures, at this point there is no publically available reports from independent inspectors. Everything everyone is saying here is strictly their personal opinion, including Kanto who often stating his own opinions as facts. I would say we drop this whole debate and wait for something concrete (no pun intended). Otherwise this pointless discussion will continue to degrade this thread and inflame hostility among members.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:49 PM   #4302
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No, the EUChoC inspection is not my opinion, it is fact. It is a study from independent inspectors and has been released in the form of a press release to the public. I have countless links as proof of this and this is the concrete and objective thing you've been looking for.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 12:36 AM   #4303
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Originally Posted by Kantotards View Post
Very interesting, I thought Samsung Contruction was the main designer and builder for the Burj Khalifa. .
Samsung was the main contractor, in a JV with ARABTEC (UAE) and BESIX (Belhasa/Six Construct) a UAE-Belgian J/V. Six Construct is owned by Orascom.

Designer was SOM.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 12:52 AM   #4304
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But weather damage isn't the concern here, concrete quality is. Concrete in the inside might be protected from rain however if the building has been built from the start with low quality concrete it will still be unsafe even when there is no rain damage inside. And I already stated a page or two ago that the concrete on the facade was performing really poorly.
1. No one can know the concrete is low quality without testing it. Even that BBC article of yours does not say anything testing. It only says some people visited it.

2. Knowing first hand how communism work, and how easy it is to loose your head if you fail at something major and important to the regime, using of lower grade concrete is highly unlikely.

3. Once again Kanto, you have the wrong understanding that what facade means
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Old December 8th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #4305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
No, the EUChoC inspection is not my opinion, it is fact. It is a study from independent inspectors and has been released in the form of a press release to the public. I have countless links as proof of this and this is the concrete and objective thing you've been looking for.
This is what your beloved BBC articles sayss:

Quote:
A delegation from the European Union Chamber of Commerce in Korea, which inspected the building almost 15 years ago, concluded it was beyond repair and its lift shafts crooked
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Old December 8th, 2012, 01:20 AM   #4306
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It doesn't matter if you're a spokesperson for a business and commerce system, if your name has the words 'European Union' in it, it automatically means you can conclude anything you want about anything, even without evidence. Even something to do with...uh...engineering... and you're always right, because anything with the word 'European' in it is 100% correct and trustworthy.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #4307
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This article epitomizes the true reasons behind this building's hate. Look at the comments.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ay-north-korea
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Old December 8th, 2012, 02:14 AM   #4308
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Like I posted before in my comments, I asked my Structures professor (I'm majoring in Architecture) about the concrete exterior, and he said it was hard to determine the structural integrity, but based on the crappy work on the exterior, there is a chance that the interior will have problems (superficial judgement as he ended up putting it)...and as he taught us a couple of years ago when we did a quarter on Concrete structure, in the pics showing the rusted rebar on the interior, when it does that, it expands eventually creating cracks in the concrete, which is not a good thing. There is natural cracking from concrete while curing, but when it happens due to rebar (which is the case in the interior pics), then it is abnormal....anyway, all of this is my opinion. Like people are pointing out, no one will know for certain, but I'm just trying to argue why it is not safe, and I'm not against the building for being DPRK built, but for being applauded as incredible despite in my view being an unsafe white elephant.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 03:06 AM   #4309
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So it should merely be hated because of the accepted rumour that it is unsafe. Fine. But the argument of it being hated for being a 'white elephant' should be completely null.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:16 AM   #4310
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I will refer to it as a "white elephant" because it is what it is, an empty superstructure with absolutely no concrete evidence that developers are really clamoring for it. There are no signs of it being in operation any time within the next few years....and you want my opinion on it?

I used to think it was cool, but as the cladding progressed until what we see now, I think it's a postmodern monstrosity (no pun intended on the size). I'm not really a fan of postmodernist architecture except for a few particular works, but if you notice in architecture, there are a lot of works that stand the test of time and look modern in design, despite being designed 10 years previously to being completed. This one is dated in design or its designer/client did not think it through to make it an outstanding piece of architecture that would look contemporary. The futuristic look of this building is very 80s (which it is) in design, while a building like the Citicorp in NYC was built in the 70s but can have a timeless look. Plus from judging in the pics, the perimeter seems way too thick, that I think it affects the layouts of the rooms in a negative way in terms of letting light in. All in all, I applaud DPRK for building something like this, but I think they could have done something more better thought out. Like the majority of the Dubai skyscrapers, the lack of good zoning codes (which can dictate aesthetics), has created ugly architecture with no context to the surrounding city (except for the front road leading to the hotel).
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:37 AM   #4311
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I'm saying there is no reason to blame it for being a white elephant. Especially for Americans, who took the time to carve out four giant heads of their leaders on a mountain and build a concrete pillar worth nothing except for honoring one person. Not like it's a bad thing, but you can't look down on North Korea for doing it.
One thing I disagree with is that it will in fact be used by Kempinski and Orascom. And it's not really fair to say that for a building that isn't complete yet. Empire State Building was empty for a few years,too, so more tenants might come afterwards, who knows.

I didn't know this classified as postmodernism. I thought there was just modernist (the rectangular office buildings) and modern (abstract glass/metal shapes). I imagined brick/stone buildings like Abraj Al Bait as postmodernist
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:47 AM   #4312
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So, after the arguments based on politics and concrete weathering, we have now moved to criticizing it based on its status as a white elephant? Sure it's a white elephant, but so are a lot of other buildings, especially famous, highly lauded ones. Why is money pissed away on military spending? Why are grandiose stadiums built at taxpayer expense and used maybe 20X/year? What about the Millennium Dome?

If you want pragmatism in this generation of architecture, you'd have to refer to some boring stuff. EVERYTHING else, including the vast majority of the LA Basin and its relative low density autocentrism and 99% of the skyscrapers on this site, AREN'T completely pragmatic.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:55 AM   #4313
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Most people will always want to find things to criticize this building about. That's the mentality towards it, these days...
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:44 AM   #4314
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It's simply too easy to find fault in a building as hideous as this.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 10:58 AM   #4315
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Skyscraper in Pyongyang on the right is the most original and unique building in East Asia! It can not be confused with any structure in Asia. The North Korean people can be proud of their achievement in architecture.



The 105-storey Ryugyong Hotel one of the tallest in the world:


Last edited by Aliens; December 8th, 2012 at 11:18 AM.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #4316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
1. No one can know the concrete is low quality without testing it. Even that BBC article of yours does not say anything testing. It only says some people visited it.

2. Knowing first hand how communism work, and how easy it is to loose your head if you fail at something major and important to the regime, using of lower grade concrete is highly unlikely.

3. Once again Kanto, you have the wrong understanding that what facade means
1, Exactly, and that is why I'm sure they tested it cause without testing it they could not conclusively assess the concrete quality. Sure, pics of a crumbled facade provide an indication of the concrete being poor but alone it isn't conclusive. If you want something conclusive you have to do tests. No where it is written that they just looked at it like you and ThatOneGuy say and frankly it doesn't make any sense because, as I said above, looking isn't conclusive but I said that already and I won't repeat myself. Also, you have to take into account that in the late 90s there might have been no crumbling concrete at the facade at all.

2, Even communists live in reality. if there just isn't enough money to build a building with high quality materials then the building just can't be built this way. Commies however value propaganda above anything else and so it's natural that they will try to build the building at all costs, even if it means using substandard materials and making the building unsafe. All to have a nice Potemkin village for their oppressed people to see.

3, And again you're twisting what I said. I never said that the damaged concrete on the facade is a problem. I only said that it is damaged far more than it should be and the fact that the facade has this low quality concrete points (not prooves but points) to the concrete of the rest of the building to be low quality too. I'd also like to add that that facade is not a facade in basic terms because it has no cladding, it is the exposed structural concrete so that makes your notion that the inner layer of concrete is completely different in quality even far less probable.

And as to the BBC article, it doesn't directly talk about concrete quality, but countless other articles with the EUChoC report do. Additionally it says the building is irreparable. The building is made from concrete, if the concrete would be OK then it wouldn't even need repairs, if it would have an OK quality but had some damage it would need repairs but it could be repaired, however the building can't be repaired, as the BBC article says so the concrete must be a problem.
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Last edited by Kanto; December 8th, 2012 at 01:01 PM.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 02:56 PM   #4317
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The BBC articles said

Quote:
A delegation from the European Union Chamber of Commerce in Korea, which inspected the building almost 15 years ago, concluded it was beyond repair and its lift shafts crooked.
The BBC stated a fact, "a delegation from EUCC in Korea said such and such...."

But BBC did not, and can not verify the delegation's claims are facts.

-
For example. this is a fact,
"An online Chinese paper said North Korea's Kim Jong Un is sexiest man alive".

but this is not a fact.
"North Korea's Kim Jong Un is sexiest man alive"
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Old December 8th, 2012, 03:31 PM   #4318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krkseg1ops View Post
Can it be that the (supposed) EUCOC report...lied? Or only DPRK lies?
The EUChoC is neutral and has no reason to lie. The DPHK is the owner of the building and has therefore reason to lie. Additionally the EU and South Korea are among the most trustworthy nations while North Korea is by far the least trustworthy nation in the world.

As to mrfusion, you're playing with words. BBC and other pages that have written this article would not write it at all if they would not believe that it is true. The fact that they have written this proves that they consider it trustworthy. And with good reason because it is the only neutral inspection that was ever done on the hotel.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #4319
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I cant see how it is possible to fit 105 stories into 1083ft.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 01:58 AM   #4320
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And of course that this building was expensive. It had an incredibly unconventional shape and they had virtually no access to know how from other countries because the only comparable building in the Soviet block was the Ostankino tower, which is just a tower with a few floors and not a skyscraper.
It is interesting you raise this.

I don't quite agree it need to be expensive because it is unconventional, it slope inward, unlike the Capital Gate in UAE, Ryugyong is not a engineering chellenge, it is not harder to build then a conventional rectangular tower.

The Soviet Engineer (even most of the world) doesn't have experience with building skyscapter, so what do you do, you overdesign it, (which might explain why it need to be expensive), the building must be overdesign with redundant supports, etc so that desprite it used low quality concrete, it still get top out and stand in the wind and rain for 20 odd years.
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