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Old April 11th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #4701
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They planned to introduce a bit of capitalism back in the 80s when they built the Ryugyong, but then the USSR collapsed and Tiannemen Square happened and NK became paranoid and closed up. Then the famine happened and they stopped construction.

@ Kanto Aww, the poor lil' Western Corporate Media! They just want to have a little fun, and call the structure the fun and innocent nickname of 'Hotel of Doom' but those damn people opposing their agenda always ruin it! Prop up the innocent corporate media who only does fair and unbiased journalism! How could those damn supporters of the one good thing from North Korea be so evil and prevent comments from the poor media giants? Evilness and lying is only a North korean trait and everyone else is good! What's this "One dimensional thinking" you all speak of? Another conspiracy from north korea that you believe, you evil relentless defenders of this building?
---

Back to reality, North Korea has started another luxury hotel construction. Probably to account for the tourists that continue to visit despite the "war threats."
http://www.nknews.org/2013/03/luxury...ang-continues/
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04...n_3018952.html

I thought Kempinski was smart enough to realize that the 'war threats' are merely publicity stunts and that no war will even break out in the near future. North Korea is not so retarded to truly threaten USA. Un still needs to make a name for himself and this is how he does it.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 02:17 PM   #4702
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Kempinski has done a good decision. Taking the hotel would be immoral in so many aspects. The building is unsafe and what's worse, if they took it they would conduct trade with mass murderers. I personally was very happy when I saw that Kempinski didn't accept the deal.

As to your very emotional rant about the media, nobody is perfect on this world, but those media are still far better than your wishfull thinking based on absolutely nothing, save from North Korean propaganda from time to time. Again I'm gonna say, let people read it and form their own opinions, don't try to decide for them
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Old April 11th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #4703
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Shame that Kempinski backed out. Still, as soon as the tensions are gone, they will come back. After all, you cannot miss such a beauty to be your hotel.
@Kanto - everybody knows about your imaginary report from EUCoC, so apart from that, do you have ANY evidence to back up your claim the this hotel is structurally unsound? What is the premise of your assertion? Where is the data? Or are you just trying to convince people to believe in your conspiracy theories?
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Old April 11th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #4704
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The report is not imaginary. Just because nobody has seen it, including those who apparently reported it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist
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Old April 11th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #4705
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EDIT: My check on the links has been completed. Here they all are available for further reading

I have 18 links from 18 trustworthy webs as evidence that there was an independent inspection done on the hotel in the 90's by engineers hired by the EUChoC. This engineering inspection concluded that the concrete used in the hotel's construction was of very poor quality, that the elevator shafts of the hotel are crooked and that the building is irreparable. Here are the links:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20178985

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...-north-1482682

http://www.quora.com/Architecture/Wh...s-in-the-world

http://happygoluckyworld.com/tag/ryu.../#.UWbW3ZOeNrN

http://www.triposo.com/poi/W__45397243

http://sometimes-interesting.com/201...-the-ryugyong/

http://www.unfinishedbuildings.org/ryugyong.html

http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/131...een-it-before/

http://architectuul.com/architecture/ryugyong-hotel

http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/r/ryugyong-hotel.html

http://www.theruggedgent.com/2012/01...eas-deathstar/

http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/n...rea/hotel2.htm

http://openbuildings.com/buildings/r...l-profile-1690

http://www.hotelowner.co.uk/index.ph...ally-open.html

http://www.hoteliermiddleeast.com/15.../#.UWbY4JOeNrM

http://www.ibtimes.com/north-koreas-...en-2013-858175

http://www.liverpoolwired.co.uk/news...open-next-year

http://www.londonwired.co.uk/news.ph...open-next-year

Also, I have 4 photographs as hard evidence to show that the uncovered concrete of the hotel while it was on hold is in considerably worse shape than the concrete of any other exposed on hold building that I evere saw and that were exposed for a similar time period (and I saw quite a lot of them in Bratislava).

[IMG]http://i47.************/16bavi9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i50.************/qyxxkm.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i50.************/28vgch3.jpg[/IMG]

The following is after parts of the facade have been restored and the glass support structure has been partially added:

[IMG]http://i49.************/5wk0ll.jpg[/IMG]

OK, so I have presented loads of evidence, now it's your turn, what are your sources, from where did you come up with your opinion? Show me your evidence. If anything you're speaking is not just empty rhetoric and thin air then you must have sources. Show your sources so that all of us can see them
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Old April 11th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #4706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lau View Post

Other photo from the top:

Here is my proof that your report is lying. Your turn.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #4707
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Are you making fun of me now? That is a guy standing in the building. What relevance has this to the matter we discuss?
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Old April 11th, 2013, 07:06 PM   #4708
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I am retracting from this shitty discussion, have better things to do

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Old April 11th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #4709
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Oh, so it's a bizzare way to reffer to the crooked elevator shafts, very well. You have to take three things into consideration:

1, A crooked elevator shaft, if it isn't insanely crooked, can still serve it's purpose, however there is a heightened chance that a tragedy will occur. But this doesn't mean that a tragedy has to occur the first time it is used. A heightened chance isn't the same as a 100% chance.

2, Crooked elevator shafts are reparable, so Orascom might have repaired at least one of them. The irreparable status of the building must have reffered to the concrete. If a building is built entirely out of poor quality concrete the concrete is what is irreparable.

3, There is also the most simple possibility, that this guy walked there by the stairs. Would you not walk 105 floors by stairs if somebody promissed you a sufficient reward?

And now we're getting directed away from what I asked you. I asked you to show your sources. So where are they? You evaded my question with your previous post so I'll ask you again, where are your sources? If you have sources you don't have a reason to be afraid of posting them
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Old April 11th, 2013, 07:48 PM   #4710
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Again Kanto, seems like facts don't bother you.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 07:53 PM   #4711
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I see you try hard to evade my question, but the question still stands, where are your sources? If you have any evidence at all, where is it? Why are you afraid of posting it, that is, if you have any?
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Old April 11th, 2013, 09:53 PM   #4712
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Old April 12th, 2013, 12:20 AM   #4713
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I find it suspicious that as soon as South Korea was denied access and investment to the building in the 90s, they "concluded the building irrepairable."

Hmmm...

So Sorea claims the elevators are crooked (by how much? 1 cm can be considered crooked... and we know they use the forms sloppily, accounting for crookedness. This means nothing to quality of the concrete.) and that there's a few chips missing here and there (mostly on the slanted side exposed to rain streams), and deems it irrepairable, but when there is a massive crack in their brand new Seoul tower's concrete, they list is as 'no big deal'? Hm.

In Shenzhen, the towers were found to have bought low quality concrete in their skyscrapers, but then suddenly "the issue was resolved" and they're back under construction? Where was the western media on this one? For all we know, the concrete suppliers could have paid off the government to say there was no problem. But nobody will question, since China is not anymore a fierce Western enemy.

We know for a fact that Orascom said there was nothing wrong with it. This is a group that still exists and has a name, unlike the Sorean "commission" But of course the deniers think they are part of a North korean conspiracy. In reality, all blame would be put on Orascom if anything happened to the foreign tourists who would use this tower, from their respective countries. They would lose everything.


Sorea gives no mention as to how they sent "engineers" in the most secretive construction site on Earth, in their enemy's country. They have no involvement, so they can call it as negative a thing as they want and not be affected. None of the masses they feed their claims to will ever bother to check if they are correct.


Also, those sites mean nothing if they don't give actual facts. They probably just went on wikipedia and copy/pasted that South korea "deemed it irrepairable" (whatever that means... Obviously the concrete company Orascom and luxury hotel Kempinski disagreed...)

You can claim 911 was a demolition and give 'evidence' by listing a bunch of truther sites (there are far more of these than debunking sites). It doesn't mean any of their claims are any more correct. Quantity does not equal truth. That's how religions start.

Oh, so you saw that other buildings looked better. Damn...case closed, it's officially settled that Ryugyong is weak now. Why oh why didn't Orascom listen to some guy on the internet who saw some unfinished lowrises that looked better?

All denier claims boil down to "Oh, but North Korea wouln't care if people died in their building" which is a red-herring fallacy, and actually untrue. North Korea only dislikes political enemies and they don't put them in weak buildings to kill them. And they care about tourists, as well, unless they go against the rules of entering military bases and attempting to cause harm to the government.
Thousands of Chinese go to North Korea. What would happen if this building had an accident and killed hundreds of Chinese tourists? What would China say to North korea? It would harm their increasingly worsening relationship a lot more.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 01:21 AM   #4714
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That list of links is impressive... until you click on them and read what they say. Almost all of the ones that are critical are also parroting obviously biased catch phrases such as "hotel of doom". There was what, one report that was equally biased that all of these articles refer to if they refer to anything at all. Or was it two? Either way, the flaws were superficial enough for more outside money to be invested.

The pictures have been discussed in the past and only show surface damage. The curvature suggested by the overlaid red lines is quite likely barrel distortion from the camera. I even posted a picture to illustrate that same effect on a building know to be plumb.

We've been beating this dead horse for a while. Kanto believes the building is so horribly flawed as to be dangerous or something. Others believe that the building is merely imperfect but perfectly viable. There is no way for either side to prove their claims. All evidence has been repeated in this thread over and over.

Really this discussion boils down to how we've been taught to hate and criticize everything involving North Korea. This is exemplified by the ridiculous nickname, hotel of doom and how the articles also refer to it as the ugliest structure in the world, etc.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 01:23 AM   #4715
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its amazing!
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Old April 12th, 2013, 02:41 AM   #4716
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We are going back in circle,

Kanto claim he has dozens of trustworthy articles claiming crooked elevator shaft, poor quality concrete and building is irreparable. Orascom (or anyone that claim the building is fine) must have some dirty deal with the North Korean government.

But

The only trustworthy part is, it said

There are reports of poor construction and the use of inferior materials.

- we don't know who (names) inspect the building, or if they are bias.
- there is a report, but no one know where is the original report, no one even make an attempt to source it.


All those website is still trustworthy, because they are not the one that make those claim, just like they are not the one that claimed there are WMD in Iraq.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 03:02 AM   #4717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I have 18 links from 18 trustworthy webs as evidence that there was an independent inspection done on the hotel in the 90's by engineers hired by the EUChoC. This engineering inspection concluded that the concrete used in the hotel's construction was of very poor quality, that the elevator shafts of the hotel are crooked and that the building is irreparable. Here are the links:
You will not be able to convince anyone until someone at least find the original inspection reports.

1. EUChoC is from South Korea (likely to be mostly South Korean)
2. The engineer they hired (we don't know who they are)
3. The person that summarise the report into your 3 main issues (we also don't know who they are).

One or more could be bias or deliberately issues negative statement for NK.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #4718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
I find it suspicious that as soon as South Korea was denied access and investment to the building in the 90s, they "concluded the building irrepairable."

Hmmm...

So Sorea claims the elevators are crooked (by how much? 1 cm can be considered crooked... and we know they use the forms sloppily, accounting for crookedness. This means nothing to quality of the concrete.) and that there's a few chips missing here and there (mostly on the slanted side exposed to rain streams), and deems it irrepairable, but when there is a massive crack in their brand new Seoul tower's concrete, they list is as 'no big deal'? Hm.

In Shenzhen, the towers were found to have bought low quality concrete in their skyscrapers, but then suddenly "the issue was resolved" and they're back under construction? Where was the western media on this one? For all we know, the concrete suppliers could have paid off the government to say there was no problem. But nobody will question, since China is not anymore a fierce Western enemy.

We know for a fact that Orascom said there was nothing wrong with it. This is a group that still exists and has a name, unlike the Sorean "commission" But of course the deniers think they are part of a North korean conspiracy. In reality, all blame would be put on Orascom if anything happened to the foreign tourists who would use this tower, from their respective countries. They would lose everything.


Sorea gives no mention as to how they sent "engineers" in the most secretive construction site on Earth, in their enemy's country. They have no involvement, so they can call it as negative a thing as they want and not be affected. None of the masses they feed their claims to will ever bother to check if they are correct.


Also, those sites mean nothing if they don't give actual facts. They probably just went on wikipedia and copy/pasted that South korea "deemed it irrepairable" (whatever that means... Obviously the concrete company Orascom and luxury hotel Kempinski disagreed...)

You can claim 911 was a demolition and give 'evidence' by listing a bunch of truther sites (there are far more of these than debunking sites). It doesn't mean any of their claims are any more correct. Quantity does not equal truth. That's how religions start.

Oh, so you saw that other buildings looked better. Damn...case closed, it's officially settled that Ryugyong is weak now. Why oh why didn't Orascom listen to some guy on the internet who saw some unfinished lowrises that looked better?

All denier claims boil down to "Oh, but North Korea wouln't care if people died in their building" which is a red-herring fallacy, and actually untrue. North Korea only dislikes political enemies and they don't put them in weak buildings to kill them. And they care about tourists, as well, unless they go against the rules of entering military bases and attempting to cause harm to the government.
Thousands of Chinese go to North Korea. What would happen if this building had an accident and killed hundreds of Chinese tourists? What would China say to North korea? It would harm their increasingly worsening relationship a lot more.
Yet still you too evade my question, where is the evidence. You provided an entire essay but all of it is just your speculations. No sources at all, no hard evidence at all, just your speculation. So I ask again, where is your evidence?

As to your speculation, there are many points which you have wrong:

1, None of the reports that I posted links for ever said that the concrete is weak because the elevator shafts are crooked. They clearly said that the concrete is weak AND the elevator shafts are crooked. Also, the Seoul Lotte Tower was not inspected by the EU chanber of Commerce, so there is no "they". Besides, one crack is by far not as serious as the whole building being built out of poor quality concrete. And finally, you do a big mistake that you do whenever I post those pics. You falsely think that the visible damage on the surface is the problem, but that is not true and I never claimed that this is the case. Such surface concrete can be easily restored. (OH and crumbled concrete is on the vertical walls of the hotel and arround the windows too). What I say is that the fact that it has been damaged this much after such a short exposure to the elements is what matters and what shows the concrete to be of poor quality. This is my point.

2, I don't know about the Shenzen skyscrapers but if they indeed are built out of poor quality concrete then they are as unsafe as this hotel. Any building made out of weak concrete is unsafe, no matter where it's located.

3, You really expect that Orascom would admit that they are working on an irreparable building? No company would ever admit that. Also, you haven't seen the contract between North Korea and Orascom so you can't say what is profitable for them and what isn't. Orascom received a lot of mining rights so they might very well tilt the profit to their side even if the hotel would collapse. Without seeing contracts all you say is just pure speculation and nothing else.

4, In case you missed it, Kempinski didn't take this hotel, so you saying that they found it to be in acceptable condition is void. You haven't been at their talks with North Korea so you have no idea why they announced interest and why they later abandonned it. Maybe they abandonned their interest because the building was unsafe or maybe they were just payed by North Korea to show interest even though they never planned to take the hotel, but all of that is speculation, again you can't know what happened because you weren't present at their talks.

5, The EUChoC is not South Korea. It is an independent institution managed by both the European Union and South Korea. This international nature of the organization makes it highly trustworthy and their independence and neutrality in regards to the hotel make their inspection trustworthy in nature.

6, All of the sites I posted do give facts. All three of the main findings of the EUChoC report are facts they listed. I think you don't understand much about articles, an article gives either opinions or facts, or a combination of these two. All the points I took from the articles were facts, not opinions. Opinions is what you give.

7, Unlike your 9/11 truth pages, these pages don't deal in conspiracy theories, which would harm their credibility, therefore your argument is invalid.

8, I also see you again try to defed your speculation by saying that I speculate, but it is you who thinks that you know this building better than anybody else. If you haven't noticed, I never came up with something, like you did, I only quote articles written by other people and show photos. On the other hand you are the author of everything you are offering in this discussion. Oh, and quantity of links does say something because it shows that there are many authors who trusted the information enough to report it in their articles. Journalism is all about trustworthyness, so authors are carefull about what they trust and what not.

9, You haven't got a clue what peoplewant to see if they go to North Korea and therefore you also don't know what they don't want to see. North Korea is a dangerous destination and those that venture into it might want some adrenaline, so a collapsed hotel might not at all deter them. Also, the North Koreans already killed tourists, abdusted tourists, and recently they closed their borders alltogether. Not a very conventional move for attracting tourists yet they still did it.

At the end I will repeat my question again, where is your evidence? Show me something other than your speculation. Where are any links, where are any pictures, where is any evidence? If you would have any evidence your wouldn't have to fear showing it

Quote:
That list of links is impressive... until you click on them and read what they say. Almost all of the ones that are critical are also parroting obviously biased catch phrases such as "hotel of doom". There was what, one report that was equally biased that all of these articles refer to if they refer to anything at all. Or was it two? Either way, the flaws were superficial enough for more outside money to be invested.

The pictures have been discussed in the past and only show surface damage. The curvature suggested by the overlaid red lines is quite likely barrel distortion from the camera. I even posted a picture to illustrate that same effect on a building know to be plumb.

We've been beating this dead horse for a while. Kanto believes the building is so horribly flawed as to be dangerous or something. Others believe that the building is merely imperfect but perfectly viable. There is no way for either side to prove their claims. All evidence has been repeated in this thread over and over.

Really this discussion boils down to how we've been taught to hate and criticize everything involving North Korea. This is exemplified by the ridiculous nickname, hotel of doom and how the articles also refer to it as the ugliest structure in the world, etc.
1, Again to evidence I see. You're only reason why you dismiss those links is that you don't like them. there is absolutely no reason to believe that they are biased. They don't show anything that could be described as biased. A simple nickname is not a sign of the article vbeing biased. It is just your wishfull thinking.

2, Again I will repeat what I said countless times to That One Guy, the crumbled surface concrete is not a problem, it is a symptom, a symptom of the real problem which is poor concrete quality. That is all that I ever claimed those pics to show.

3, You try to portray me as being alone, but the fact that I showed so many links why none of the defenders of this hotel showed none links at all clearly illustrates that it is you who is in a minority. Again I will note that your claims of how biased everybody is, is nothing but your specultation based on nothing other than your opinion and wishfull thinking.

Again I'd like to note that even in your post there was absolutely no evidence. If you would have any evidence, why fear posting it?

And finally I move to mrfusion. I work with scientific articles all the time, that's my job and let me tell you that there is absolutely nothing inferior on the articles I posted. They don't include names of people, but many scientific articles don't include these names either. What they do include is the organization that was responsible for the report, namely the EUChoC and that is what matters. Reporting only the organization or university that made the research but not names is a sign that that organization wants all questions about the work to be directed at them and not on the individuals who conducted the research. This is even more understandable if we take into consideration that the EUChoC isn't an engineering organization, it only hired engineers to do the inspection. This gives them further reason as to why they would like questions to be directed directly at them. Organizations, especially diplomatic organizations don't like if somebody who they hired just for one single job is speaking for them.

Also, most scientific studies aren't publicly released as a whole, only their main points are released via a press conference. Journalists from science news portals than write articles which use the information given at the press conference, this is standard procedure in the world of science, so again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not having the full original report. Also, having the full report and seeing more detailed descriptions would do absolutely nothing to raise trustworthyness of the report. It would still be just text, which is as trustworthy, or as untrustworthy as the institution that made it an the portal on which it is located.

So my final take on this post is that I summarize this discussion. Not a single one of my sources or piece of evidence has been debunked while not a single source or piece of evidence was provided by those who disagree with my sources and my evidence. That alone speaks for itself. Evidence will always be more important than speculation and wishfull thinking and therefore I trust everybody who reads this thread to make their own opinion based on the evidence they see (or not see if there isn't any)
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Old April 12th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #4719
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The worlds tallest building
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Old April 12th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #4720
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Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Also, I have 4 photographs as hard evidence to show that the uncovered concrete of the hotel while it was on hold is in considerably worse shape than the concrete of any other exposed on hold building that I evere saw and that were exposed for a similar time period (and I saw quite a lot of them in Bratislava).
Kanto, this is the "Razsochy" hospital in Bratislava, which was abandoned in 1992. Do you think, that it really looks that different ? (from the surface). Btw, which are the other buildings, you are reffering to, the abandoned ones, with bare concrete ?
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