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Old April 12th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #4721
Kanto
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Rįzsochy looks far better than this hotel. On the pics you posted I saw no damage to walls and only on one of the pics I saw darkening due to water flow. On the other hand there are countless black spots on the hotel that are due to water flow and there are also many chunks of missing concrete. Chunks of missing concrete are different from simple darkening in that they are a three dimensional crater and not just a two dimensional black field

Also, those pics are taken from far closer to the building than the pics of the hotel I posted. This means that we can see there smaller imperfections than on the pics of the hotel. The fact that despite that the hotel looks far worse is in my opinion a testament of how much worse it performed than Rįzsochy.

As to other buildings I saw, I don't know their names and I don't even remember their exact location but I could find them if I go through Google maps. I will look into it once I have free time to spare and will post pics of them in this thread for comparison
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #4722
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I agree with Kanto. We can see the poor concrete and crooked walls with our own eyes. It may not indicate imminent danger, but it does say one thing VERY clearly: The construction methods resulted in a poor alignments and concrete that needed extensive repair. Those results are now covered with beautiful glass.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:17 AM   #4723
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Are you kidding me? That concrete looks awful. Although still, I do not doubt it could be reused, because surface damage does not represent bad quality. And neither does misalignment.

Where are the missing chunks from ryugyong? I see some surface chips gone and those aren't chunks. I know tons of buildings in my city still inhabited and standing fine that have chunks missing.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:20 AM   #4724
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The worlds tallest building
Doesn't make any sense. Whatsoever.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:57 AM   #4725
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We can just enjoy its beauty before it collapses.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 08:02 AM   #4726
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We can just enjoy its beauty before it collapses.
I guess we will enjoy it for a long time then!
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Old April 13th, 2013, 08:03 AM   #4727
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I showed you my evidence. A paper. With facts. You list it as propaganda, against all proof. Except some comment by NK enemies. What do you want me to say?
Besides, my entire point of these essays isn't to justify the ryugyong being perfect but to add another side to the issue, instead of listening to everything being dealt by the (sadly untrustworthy) western media giants. Here in Romania we despise media sensationalism and distortion of facts. We hate it when the winners write history to their own agendas. Both sides need to be given a chance, and the naysayers' chance has been given long enough, and is quite frankly ridiculous. "Hotel of Doom..."Is the media 5 years old with such stupid nicknames?
I keep it up because you don't seem to be disproving anything I say either.

Remember that DailyMail Ryugyong "article" that you love so much? Pretty much everyone in the UK hates Dailymail and are fully aware of their BS. They write some nasty stuff against innocent people as well, including an article making fun of a transvestite that eventually led her to suicide. They've been known to straight up lie. Just one example of the vileness that some media corporations have the ability to inflict.

I don't know about you but I read up on economics. Businesses can't cover up something as material as weak concrete and get away with it. Especially if something happened to the building.
BREAKING NEWS: HOTEL REFURBISHED BY CONCRETE MANUFACTURER ORASCOM COLLAPSES FROM CONCRETE ISSUES; HUNDREDS DEAD.
What would happen? What about the foreign tourists killed? Imagine if one of them was American? Or Chinese? A 330 meter tall building collapse would get a media frenzy. Just recently a small apartment block collapsed in India during construction and it was on the big news. Over 70 people died and 15 suspects were arrested of 'culpable homicide' due to using poor building materials.

Why have a massive crack if the concrete is as good as they say? If that happened at 1WTC, oh man...

You don't know the Shenzhen skyscrapers reported to have poor quality?
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=517647
And plenty others... I don't care if they are as "unsafe," as you call it. My point was that no western media sensationalism spit on on those ones, because they weren't in North korea.

EUCOC in Korea (currently defunct) represented South korean business trade and relations internationally. (once again, they had no business in engineering) Because South korea was denied access and investment to the Ryugyong in the early 90s, they had perfect reason to report it as bad.
USA also is 'prestigeous'. And who claimed WMDs were in Iraq and cost the lives of millions? Also this is some random hotel that nobody will care to question their claims about.

Kempinski halted (not cancelled) their plans because the "market was not currently good." It had nothing to do with whatever quality building it is. Please, tell me I'm wrong with this.
Orascom, as far as we know, is still intending on using the building's lower floors. I have little doubt that once Kim's war rhetoric stops, Kempinski will come back. Also, Kempinski is Western. If they backed out due to 'poor materials' they would be applauded for good decision making. But they didn't.

911 theories = sensationalism, and so does a large portion of Western Media, more specifically Ryugyong "reporting". Neither have hard facts, and both use strong rhetorics, so they are very similar.

I remember back when an idea printed in large masses meant truth. It was back in the Dark Ages, and it was called the Bible. Galileo was seen as a madman. Despite his facts, they were tossed away because they went against the word of God.

You assume a lot of these North korea tourists... You really think they want to see a building collapse? Some are just sick of the stuffy commercialism and shopping malls.

If you do work in this 'report checking' (whatever that means) How can you claim two phrases made by a business group with no facts to back it up, coming from an unknown paper that had info gained from unknown ways by unknown people, is more reliable than an earthquake engineering (not propaganda) report made mainly by macedonians and dutch, with the macedonians witnessing the concrete first-hand? I don't believe NK had anything to hide if they would even allow Europeans on their site to work with them. (This was in 1992, after NK closed up as well and cancelled the plan of introducing a bit of capitalism in the economy.)
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Old April 13th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #4728
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Once again kids: Missalignements are cosmetic problems due to the formwork used. The missing chunks are weather demage and cosmetic too. Neither of them are structural problems.

Croocked elevator shafts aren't a structural problem either, and are common occurrance in construction and are not that fifficult to be handled, unless of course we are talking about huge disscrepancies.

Last but not least: Where is that ''famous'' original report with naming of the team involved, methodology employed, tests carried out, results received and conclussions reached?
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Old April 13th, 2013, 11:54 AM   #4729
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Visiting North Korea today would be a little bit like visiting Hitler's Germany. I'd feel dirty even stepping over the threshold of the border, and would feel a sense of deep shame that my basic assumed freedoms - such as the freedom to travel around the world - are not gifted to the people of the country I was visiting.

So dangerous or no, why on earth would I waste my money to be a tourist there? Now?

There was an interesting story recently in New Scientist in which a scientist was invited to visit the country as part of a mission to help with the reforestation efforts the government was hoping to launch.

I'm afraid it's a subscription site, but here's the link: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rth-korea.html

Well worth a read if you want to peer behind the bollocks in the news and understand what life is really like for ordinary people in that hellhole. It was written by someone without a political agenda, who just wanted to help.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #4730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
Once again kids: Missalignements are cosmetic problems due to the formwork used. The missing chunks are weather demage and cosmetic too. Neither of them are structural problems.

Croocked elevator shafts aren't a structural problem either, and are common occurrance in construction and are not that fifficult to be handled, unless of course we are talking about huge disscrepancies.

Last but not least: Where is that ''famous'' original report with naming of the team involved, methodology employed, tests carried out, results received and conclussions reached?
Did you even read what I wrote? I explicitly stated that crooked elevator shafts are reparable, that surface concrete is restorable and that crumbled surface concrete is not a problem. However it is a symptom, a symptom of poor concrete quality, which is irreparable and a serious problem.

Also, you don't seem to understand what press releases are all about. Press releases are how most research gets into the world and they are always a short summary of the findings of the research. They never go into big detail because they can't, you can't expect people who aren't directly involved with this specific research to read countless pages of documentation. Also, documentation alone is not a magical verification as you portray it, it is just written text, which you can either trust, or not trust. There are countless engineers on this planet and each and every one of them can write endless pages of documentation, but does this mean that therefore it must be true? Nope, at the end the only thing that decides whether something is true or a lie is credibility. Documentation of each of their step during the research is just more text. More text can be faked just as easily as less text and therefore more text does nothing to improve the trustworthyness of an article. You can't 100% proove or 100% disproove most things in life, but with evaluation of credibility you can analyze the odds and therefore learn the probable value of truthfullness of the matter at hand.

Btw, I already explained in my previous post that if companies employ the services of people that are not they employees they often not list their names so that questions regarding the work get directed at them and not at the people they hired, so why do you expect me to repeat it all over again?

Quote:
I showed you my evidence. A paper. With facts. You list it as propaganda, against all proof. Except some comment by NK enemies. What do you want me to say?
Besides, my entire point of these essays isn't to justify the ryugyong being perfect but to add another side to the issue, instead of listening to everything being dealt by the (sadly untrustworthy) western media giants. Here in Romania we despise media sensationalism and distortion of facts. We hate it when the winners write history to their own agendas. Both sides need to be given a chance, and the naysayers' chance has been given long enough, and is quite frankly ridiculous. "Hotel of Doom..."Is the media 5 years old with such stupid nicknames?
I keep it up because you don't seem to be disproving anything I say either.

Remember that DailyMail Ryugyong "article" that you love so much? Pretty much everyone in the UK hates Dailymail and are fully aware of their BS. They write some nasty stuff against innocent people as well, including an article making fun of a transvestite that eventually led her to suicide. They've been known to straight up lie. Just one example of the vileness that some media corporations have the ability to inflict.

I don't know about you but I read up on economics. Businesses can't cover up something as material as weak concrete and get away with it. Especially if something happened to the building.
BREAKING NEWS: HOTEL REFURBISHED BY CONCRETE MANUFACTURER ORASCOM COLLAPSES FROM CONCRETE ISSUES; HUNDREDS DEAD.
What would happen? What about the foreign tourists killed? Imagine if one of them was American? Or Chinese? A 330 meter tall building collapse would get a media frenzy. Just recently a small apartment block collapsed in India during construction and it was on the big news. Over 70 people died and 15 suspects were arrested of 'culpable homicide' due to using poor building materials.

Why have a massive crack if the concrete is as good as they say? If that happened at 1WTC, oh man...

You don't know the Shenzhen skyscrapers reported to have poor quality?
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=517647
And plenty others... I don't care if they are as "unsafe," as you call it. My point was that no western media sensationalism spit on on those ones, because they weren't in North korea.

EUCOC in Korea (currently defunct) represented South korean business trade and relations internationally. (once again, they had no business in engineering) Because South korea was denied access and investment to the Ryugyong in the early 90s, they had perfect reason to report it as bad.
USA also is 'prestigeous'. And who claimed WMDs were in Iraq and cost the lives of millions? Also this is some random hotel that nobody will care to question their claims about.

Kempinski halted (not cancelled) their plans because the "market was not currently good." It had nothing to do with whatever quality building it is. Please, tell me I'm wrong with this.
Orascom, as far as we know, is still intending on using the building's lower floors. I have little doubt that once Kim's war rhetoric stops, Kempinski will come back. Also, Kempinski is Western. If they backed out due to 'poor materials' they would be applauded for good decision making. But they didn't.

911 theories = sensationalism, and so does a large portion of Western Media, more specifically Ryugyong "reporting". Neither have hard facts, and both use strong rhetorics, so they are very similar.

I remember back when an idea printed in large masses meant truth. It was back in the Dark Ages, and it was called the Bible. Galileo was seen as a madman. Despite his facts, they were tossed away because they went against the word of God.

You assume a lot of these North korea tourists... You really think they want to see a building collapse? Some are just sick of the stuffy commercialism and shopping malls.

If you do work in this 'report checking' (whatever that means) How can you claim two phrases made by a business group with no facts to back it up, coming from an unknown paper that had info gained from unknown ways by unknown people, is more reliable than an earthquake engineering (not propaganda) report made mainly by macedonians and dutch, with the macedonians witnessing the concrete first-hand? I don't believe NK had anything to hide if they would even allow Europeans on their site to work with them. (This was in 1992, after NK closed up as well and cancelled the plan of introducing a bit of capitalism in the economy.)
You showed me absolutely nothing. You didn't post a single link (other than the link to the Pingan thread, which is completely unrelated to the discussion at hand) and you didn't post a single pic. You only tried to fool the people reading this thread that you have provided evidence, you have not provided anything.

So where is your evidence? If you're so full of "facts" then where are they? All I see is a desperate forumer speculating and playing with words in order to make it appear as if you would know what you talk about

But okay, I will repeat myself again and offer you my speculation:

1, I think there is a reason why you don't post the fake report you found anymore. Everybody can see on the first page that your precious report has North Korean authors. If you are so fond of it then why don't you post it? I posted all of the links I had. Everybody who's seen documentaries knows that everything and everybody in North Korea belongs to the state. The state is notorious for its nonsencial propaganda. Therefore a report which is partially written by North Koreans is a North Korean report and a North Korean report would never say anything bad about something North Korean, because otherwise the North Korean authors would go to a concentration camp together with their entire family. A North Korean report on a North Korean building has absolutely zero credibility, therefore it is invalid evidence, debunked evidence, if you will. I think the fact that you aren't posting the link to it anymore speaks volumes about what are your thoughts about it.

2, Um, tell me, what has dailymail to do with this hotel? It had an article about it, yes, and I said the article was well written, but even untrustworthy news networks may have good articles from time to time. What matters is that I DIDN'T INCLUDE this article in my 18 links, because it doesn't come from a trustworthy source, therefore your essay about dailymail is off topic.

3, And I see that again you think that solely by your speculation you can understand what is profitable for Orascom and what isn't and that you can understand Kempinski's intentions, all of this without seeing their contracts. No, you have no clue what is profitable for them and what isn't. North Korea might very well have given Orascom a deal with which it would gain money even if the hotel collapsed. Also you seem to forget that if North Korea would say the hotel was blown up by American agents and would not let in any foreign investigators, nobody could connect that hotel's collapse with Orascom.

4, And once again I have to repeat myself, the deal between Kempinski and North Korea is cancelled, and that is all we know, so your speculation about what has happened is well, just speculations without the slightest piece of evidence.

5, I see you're going off topic again. What do WMDs in Iraq have to do with this hotel? Also, the EUChoC in SOuth KOrea was a joint diplomatic organization managed by both the EU and South Korea to promote free trade. Also, did you ever hear of companies hiring the services of proffesionals? The fact that EUChoC is not an engineering company doesn't mean anything because just as everybody else on this planet who has enough money, they can hire the services of engineers. Ever thought about that?

6, And no, you don't know what tourists to North Korea want to see, so you can't speak for them. Also, this issu has absolutely nothing to do with sensationalism. Only very few people are interested in this hotel, so no sensations here.

7, It is funny that you mention Gallileo, because he too had evidence, while the religious leaders who prosecuted him had just their speculation. I have evidence, you have only speculation. Otherwise you would have posted links or pics, cause that is evidence.

8, Also I see you are again raping the word fact and lying your way away from the fact that you didn't provide any evidence at all. 1st, your precious North Korean report had nothing to do with the dutch other than that it was published in their country. In the free world one can publish his/her studies wherever he/she wants. Also, your fantasy that mostly Macedonians and Dutch were duing the report has absolutely no basis in evidence and is just pure wishfull fantasy. otherwise you would post a link. Links are evidence, not your empty words. 2nd, the EUChoC report has 3 facts, that the concrete is of poor quality, that the elevator shafts are crooked and that the building is irreparable. A fact is a concrete statement and these are exact, concrete statements. Also, I see you are full of assumptions which have no basis in evidence. The EUChoC report has composed the three facts I posted above and we know who is responsible for it, namely the EUChoC. Also, you wrongly assume that if they had to hire engineers for the job that these engineers suddenly loose all of their abilities to conduct tests. That's nonsense. Whether an engineer works for an earthquake study institute at a university or he works independently and just happens to be hired by a diplomatic organization doesn't determine whether he is skilled or not. Therefore there is absolutely nothing that would indicate that the engineers hired by the EUChoC were not proficient enough to make a full inspection. Also, if they made the inspection, they must have witnessed the concrete first hand, so your assumption that they somehow magically made measurements if they haven't taken samples is unscientific fantasy.

11, Again I will note that the EUChoC report is the ONLY independent inspection that was carried out on this hotel. The other report you speak about has North Korean authors and is therefore completely untrustworthy and its informative value is therefore nil.

Again I have successfully debunked all of your speculation and again you have provided no evidence at all. You can't hide the fact that you haven't provided a single link or a single pic. You even fear to provide the North Korean report because then all people could see that it has North Korean authors. Do you honestly think that your fantasy speculation can stand up to cold, hard evidence?
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Old April 13th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #4731
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Look like Kim Jong Ủn's rocket
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Old April 13th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #4732
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*del

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Old April 13th, 2013, 03:45 PM   #4733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Are you kidding me? That concrete looks awful. Although still, I do not doubt it could be reused, because surface damage does not represent bad quality. And neither does misalignment.

Where are the missing chunks from ryugyong? I see some surface chips gone and those aren't chunks. I know tons of buildings in my city still inhabited and standing fine that have chunks missing.
On this pic you can see a huge surface layer crumbled, also you can see crumbling concrete arround the window holes, and heavily crumbled floor slabs of the balconies, also you see countless water flows. Many cracks are also present:

[IMG]http://i50.************/qyxxkm.jpg[/IMG]

Here you can see basically the same thing but in a lesser resolution:

[IMG]http://i50.************/28vgch3.jpg[/IMG]

Here you can see crumbled edges arround windows and balconies. Also countless water flow spots:

[IMG]http://i47.************/16bavi9.jpg[/IMG]

And here you can see the balcony slabs being already restored, however you can see chunks of missing concrete on the vertical walls as well as many cracks:

[IMG]http://i47.************/16bavi9.jpg[/IMG]
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Old April 13th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #4734
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Sigh, here we go again with Kanto's smear campaign. We get it, there are a couple photos of bad concrete, and there was a report published by the enemies of North Korea that was critical of the building.
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #4735
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Kanto's campaign? You seem to forget that the media and public opinion are on my side. It is you and a few other forumers who are on a campaign
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Old April 13th, 2013, 07:52 PM   #4736
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In that case it must be true if media is on your side
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Old April 13th, 2013, 08:17 PM   #4737
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No, it's not true because the media are on my side, it's true because evidence is on my side. I have provided 18 articles and 4 photos as evidence, while neither you, nor those who agree with you have provided any evidence at all
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Old April 13th, 2013, 08:45 PM   #4738
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First time on this thread, interesting debate. Also interesting is the blatant bias people are showing here for one side or the other. So after all the verbiage here I can only conclude that as far as the building goes there is nothing we can say is accurate since people here don't trust the media and by the way don't single out the western media. If you are going to distrust media then distrust all of it including Romania, just saying. Any structural engineers here that have been in the building?
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Old April 14th, 2013, 12:04 AM   #4739
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It isn't that I don't trust the media, but rather all of those eighteen articles don't make any reasoned arguments. There was a report published by the enemies of North Korea that is vaguely referred to if any source is referred to at all. Yet we've never gotten any real detail as to what is in that report or the justification used for conclusions.

Given the obvious despise that exists between the countries involved, we shouldn't believe vague criticism without detail that can be evaluated as being based upon fact or on animosity between enemy nations.

That's why this debate keeps going in circles. There is not any information to go on. Some of the posts on this thread contain more words than all the evidence that is available to debate.

Edit:

To be clear, I'm not biased toward North Korea. Instead, I am merely acknowledging that both sides are biased and have been waging a public perception battle against eachother for decades. This is why the two reports from the opposing sides are in contradiction. The public perception of this skyscraper is merely a pawn in a larger battle.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #4740
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Quote:
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Kanto's campaign? You seem to forget that the media and public opinion are on my side. It is you and a few other forumers who are on a campaign
So what, the media is always right? Do you think everything you hear about the country is true? Media always twists things, same as they did with Russia and Germany. The forumers probably know more than some people payed to be bias.
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