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Old April 14th, 2013, 01:15 AM   #4741
dfiler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadhead262 View Post
So what, the media is always right? Do you think everything you hear about the country is true? Media always twists things, same as they did with Russia and Germany. The forumers probably know more than some people payed to be bias.
My take is that the media is composed of people just like us. The people on both sides of this militarized political divide have a tendency to demonize anything and everything about the other side. This hotel is a prime example of that.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 01:25 PM   #4742
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Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
It isn't that I don't trust the media, but rather all of those eighteen articles don't make any reasoned arguments. There was a report published by the enemies of North Korea that is vaguely referred to if any source is referred to at all. Yet we've never gotten any real detail as to what is in that report or the justification used for conclusions.

Given the obvious despise that exists between the countries involved, we shouldn't believe vague criticism without detail that can be evaluated as being based upon fact or on animosity between enemy nations.

That's why this debate keeps going in circles. There is not any information to go on. Some of the posts on this thread contain more words than all the evidence that is available to debate.

Edit:

To be clear, I'm not biased toward North Korea. Instead, I am merely acknowledging that both sides are biased and have been waging a public perception battle against eachother for decades. This is why the two reports from the opposing sides are in contradiction. The public perception of this skyscraper is merely a pawn in a larger battle.
We do have all the detail we need. We do have the details that tell us why this building is unsafe and irreparable. We know that the building is made out of poor quality concrete and the elevator shafts are crooked. This is real, physical, solid information that can be verified and tested if one would get access to the hotel. Any more details are merely for guidance to make future studies easier. All the conclusions which describe the problem have been listed in these articles. Also, it isn't an anonymous inspection, we know that it was organized by the EUChoC.

You have to realize that more text doesn't mean more credibility. Several pages of text can be faked just as easily as a single line. In the end credibility of the text and its source is the only thing that decides whether one should believe it or not.

Also, it is impossible to perfectly fully document something. There are always gonna be details that won't be listed. You can never list everything, not in a published paper and definitely not in a press release. For example, you can always ask what tests they made, if you know that you can always ask what equipment they used, if you know that you can always ask whether they were proficient with using the equipment, if you know about that you can always ask if the equipment was properly calibrated, if you know that you can always ask whether they were well focused on their work, if you know that you can always whether they weren't interrupted at work, if you know that you can always ask whether they had enough sleep during the preceeding night and this could go on and on towards eternity. So you see, what matters is whether the given information is conclusive and factual and the information about poor quality concrete and crooked elevator shafts is both conclusive and factual. As I said before, it is perfectly enough for further research.

Also, there is absolutely no sign that either the EUChoC, nor the journalists who reported their findings were biased. In the free world the government actually has to pay agencies to spread untrue stories, unlike North Korea, where the only thing the government needs to do is saying the author that he will go into a concentration camp with his entire family if he doesn't publish what they want. This hotel just isn't enough interesting for the masses for bashing it to be worth the bribing. If you want to stir up emotions in the masses you have to come up with a story that will truly shake them.

And no, the forumers defending the hotel don't know more than the journalists that wrote the articles I posted. As a proof is the fact that none of these forumers provided any kind of source, whether in the form of a link or in the form of a photo. No sources at all, no evidence at all, such an approach is a very poor example of journalism, if the journalists who made those articles would do such poor research nobody would read their sites

Also, last, but not least, I found a highly credible 19th source for information about the EUChoC report. This source is a book by a prestigeous author. It' called Avoiding the Apocalypse: The future of the two Koreas by Marcus Noland. The information about the hotel is on page 82 with the source being at page 383. Both of these pages are included in the google books preview over here:

http://books.google.sk/books/about/A...QC&redir_esc=y
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Old April 14th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #4743
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Seriously, your posts are becoming more and more hilarious. Until you actually defeat the Macedonian report by bringing your EuCOC ghost, there is no logical discussion here.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 02:05 PM   #4744
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Attack me if you'd like, but your attacks won't hide the fact that you provided no evidence at all. Not even a single link. You're even aftraid to even put a link to your belowed North Korean/Macedonian report because of how easily it is debunked. Your attacks won't hide your desperation and fear
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Old April 14th, 2013, 02:27 PM   #4745
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Kanto, none of your links provide any detail. None whatsoever. I'd be very interested in reading the report that made the original criticism. Is that available? Seriously, it would be interesting to read the specific allegations and supporting evidence.

Without that, we are left with just the paroting of vague criticism of an enemy state.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 04:01 PM   #4746
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And that's exactly what Kanto fails to gasp. Where the [email protected] is the report Kanto, at least let us read it
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Old April 14th, 2013, 07:25 PM   #4747
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And when and where is the original press release/summary published?
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Old April 14th, 2013, 09:34 PM   #4748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
Kanto, none of your links provide any detail. None whatsoever. I'd be very interested in reading the report that made the original criticism. Is that available? Seriously, it would be interesting to read the specific allegations and supporting evidence.

Without that, we are left with just the paroting of vague criticism of an enemy state.
I've searched for the original report but without success so far. It might be unavailable and it might be available but I just still haven't found it. I don't know. I'll keep looking for it

But this doesn't put any shadow on the articles using it for information at all. You and other defenders of the hotel seem to unify what can't be unified. Listing details and doing details are two completely different things. This means that one might write a hundred page report but might not do a single measurement at all, and one can release just a short press release, but do all measurements that are required to reach the conclusions to which he came.

To put the long story short, details in a report don't tell anything about the trustworthyness of a report. They serve only two functions. They guide scientists if they would want to do further physical scientific research and they make a part of the inconclusive statements in the report conclusive. However the fact that the hotel uses poor quality concrete, the fact that it has crooked elevator shafts and the fact that it is irreparable are all three perfectly conclusive in regard to the evaulation of whether the hotel is safe or not.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #4749
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I thought you'd all be ignoring him at this point.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #4750
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Maybe ignoring is best but with him spamming this thread every month or two, it would give a false impression of what is known about this building.

Like those 18, now 19 links he brags about., If you don't take the time to read them, you wouldn't realize that they all basically make a one sentence reference to a report that we nor the authors have read.

While the report might prove vague even if we got a copy, it would still be good to see. If written with the same obviously biased tone as seen in many of these hotel of doom, ugliest building in the world articles, then obviously it would be discredited completely.

Until a copy surfaces though, all we are left with is journalists referencing a report they've never seen and one written about an enemy nation. Given there is a contradictory report as well, and a major corporation invested hundreds of millions in finishing the building, the unbiased conclusion is that the critical report was politically slanted.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 02:10 PM   #4751
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Ignoring? This is a discussion about the engineering of the hotel. Nothing belongs into this thread more than this discussion

And again you claim how biased everybody is who says something bad about this hotel or even who reffers to it by nickname. This is pure speculation on your part. Also, you have no clue who saw the original report and who didn't, so your statement that none of the authors of the articles and of the book saw this report is pure speculation as well.

Again let me ask you this, where is your evidence? I provided 19 links and 4 pics, none of the hotel's defenders provided anything, so where is your evidence?

Also, we know who is behind the true report, namely the EUChoC, so it isn't just an anonymous report like you use to portray it. That and the fact that even though we have just a brief press release, it is perfectly conclusive for evaluation of the safety of the hotel.

Also, you don't seem to gasp that while in North Korea not spreading propaganda by anybody is punishable with slaughter at a concentration camp, in the EU and South Korea this is not the case, so they would actually have to bribe the EUChoC for it to release propaganda. And I personally seriously doubt that anybody would bother bribing folks for lying about a hotel about very few people care. Propaganda needs sensations, not stories which don't interest the masses.

At the end, I'd also like to note that the EUChoC is an international organization, which further increases its trustworthyness because of the increased difficulty of bribing international organizations, in which there are multiple groupds with multiple goals.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 02:48 PM   #4752
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Kanto, just shut up and show us the EUCHOC report
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Old April 15th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #4753
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I showed you 18 articles and 1 book with its conclusive information. That's just as good as an original report. You don't seem to gasp that finding original papers is not that easy. Often they are only available at archives, or are sold, so one has to buy access to them. And there is also the most obvious of things, in the late 90's internet was still in its infancy, so most things weren't put online.

But as I said, an article with conclusive information from a conclusive source is just as good as a paper itself. Again I'd say that most scientific information on the internet is accessible only via press releases and scientific articles. An article can be just as informative and credible as an original paper if it comes from a credible source. And the 19 sources I posted are credible.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #4754
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Old April 15th, 2013, 03:18 PM   #4755
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To get back to that "concrete / overall construction quality" in North Korea, please check this link. Even the new buildings in Mansudae area seems a bit different compared to our european buildings, especially if you take a closer look on the edges of the structure / balconies (01:14). Question is, if it“s OK, and it“s just their construction method ...
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Old April 15th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #4756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I showed you 18 articles and 1 book with its conclusive information. That's just as good as an original report. You don't seem to gasp that finding original papers is not that easy. Often they are only available at archives, or are sold, so one has to buy access to them. And there is also the most obvious of things, in the late 90's internet was still in its infancy, so most things weren't put online.

But as I said, an article with conclusive information from a conclusive source is just as good as a paper itself. Again I'd say that most scientific information on the internet is accessible only via press releases and scientific articles. An article can be just as informative and credible as an original paper if it comes from a credible source. And the 19 sources I posted are credible.
Those 18 links all parrot the same worthless thing, only the original report can shed some light on what went on.

For all we know they could have been just some bureaucrats with no engineering background, who gave it a touristic look and reached those "conclusions", and based on how you and some others here (with no engineering background or any skyscraper experience) reach the same "conclusions" just by seeing those pictures you post, it's plausible they did the same
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Old April 15th, 2013, 04:34 PM   #4757
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Originally Posted by cnapan View Post
The people of the country that looks like this at night needs to be pitied, not hated:



People are hungry, cold and frightened, and the only blessing is that most of them are utterly oblivious about the huge gulf in living standards when compared to their neighbours to the south and more recently to the north.

Any reasonable person should detest utterly the people who are responsible for this human rights black hole, and let's hope that one day not too far from now, the Korean Iron curtain falls and the people are freed from misery.



If you do a bit of research about the history of the hotel, it's clear that if the hotel project had belonged to Hilton, the term would fit superbly. But it was never a commercial project. It was, rather, nothing more than a statement of political power erected by a corrupt and feckless leadership incapable of lifting its people out of poverty and misery.
I have seen number of different pictures of the NoKor at night. This one actually have lights in some cities in NoKor. But there were other strange pictures of NoKor where there were no lights, and somes major cities in South Korea was completely dark. You have to ask the question when and the time the pictures were taken, and what frequency the pictures were taken. Every country uses diffrenct voltage, and by playing with frequency, some lights are deleted. You have to be careful, as there are propaganda media gulag which will CHERRY pick info and ignore 99% of information to selll their pro-governement news. Don't let media gulag and media slaves degrade and demonize NoKor. Nokor Citizens are as capable as you and your own nation's citizens to build and govern a nation. It is such an arrongance to believe that one's belief that you are more capable as a citizen than other citizens around the world. If you care about others than take accountability for your own action, like IRAQ orphan who you never hear about.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #4758
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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:03 PM   #4759
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Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
Those 18 links all parrot the same worthless thing, only the original report can shed some light on what went on.

For all we know they could have been just some bureaucrats with no engineering background, who gave it a touristic look and reached those "conclusions", and based on how you and some others here (with no engineering background or any skyscraper experience) reach the same "conclusions" just by seeing those pictures you post, it's plausible they did the same
Nope, as far as conclusiveness of main data goes there is no difference between an original report and an article based on a press release. Also an article is noting "less" than an original report as far as credibility goes either. Only the source matters in regards to credibility and all of my 19 links show a credible source.

And because the EUChoC is a credible international organization, there is absolutely no reason to believe that they didn't do a proper engineering inspection. Claiming this is just purely your speculation. Also, the presence of the original report would do absolutely nothing to raise the trustworthyness of itself because again I'd say, written is not the same thing as done

Also, on countless occasions I explicitly said that the pics I posted are a) not the problem of the hotel and b) not conclusive evidence. The only thing I say is that they are good supportive evidence that something with the concrete just isn't right since other buildings with the same fate show far less damage, and that is a symptom, not the real problem, but a symptom of the real problem.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #4760
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Kanto, you do realize that EUCoC is a private organization and was shut down amidst tax evasion scandal last year?

The EU Chamber of Commerce in Korea is a private non-profit organisation founded in 1986. The EUCCK has become the key lobbying organisation promoting EU business interest in Korea through its more than 30 sectoral committees. The organisation became a key platform during the FTA talks led by the European Commission between 2007 and 2010. The Commission stresses that the EUCCK is an independent and private body and not an official representative of the EU.

http://www.europolitics.info/eu-cham...art334800.html

Can you explain me the credibility again?
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