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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:44 PM   #4761
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Tax evasion is something completely different than lying about the status of a hotel. You see, tax evasion brings in huge ammounts of money. Spreading propaganda about a hotel about which only very people care will not bring them much money. What South Korean government official would spend funds on bribing people just to say something bad about a hotel about which so few people know about.

Tax evasion = Much money into my pocket
Bashing an insignifficant hotel = I doubt any money at all into my pocket

As you said, the EUChoC was a private organization. Private organizations always want money. It all is about money. Money makes even trustworthy people to do not exactly noble deeds. If we wouldn't trust any organization which has ever been awarded a fine then we couldn't trust a single organization on this planet. I'd say it is actually a very good and trustworthy sign that the EU closed the original organization down since it means they didn't take these failures lightly. And there is already a new EUChoC:

http://nwww.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20121120000995
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Old April 15th, 2013, 08:54 PM   #4762
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Care to explain your previous comments on the credibility of this organization and the validity of their 'report'?
Also, would you be willing to admit that all your 'credible sources' have been shite so far and you have no argument?
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Old April 15th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #4763
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Tell me, the food you eat, are you sure the company that made it never received a fine? The water you drink, are you sure the water providing company never received a fine? The clothes you wear, are you sure that the company which made them never received a fine? The building you stand in, are you sure the company that built it never received a fine? The car you drive, are you sure the car manufacturer never received a fine? The computer you use, are you sure the company who made it never received a fine? The internet connection you have, are you sure your internet provided never received a fine? The air you breath, are you sure the nearest refinery never received a fine? The school you were educated in, are you sure it never received a fine? The television channel you watch, are you sure it never received a fine? ........

I could go on and on for eternity. Unless you reply "yes" to all of the questions above we have nothing more to discuss. A fine is bad, but it doesn't ruin the credibility of EVERYTHING a vast organization does.

Also, the North Korean government received huge sanctions and has no problem to declare that their leader can control weather with his thoughts or that he's written thousands of books, are these what you consider credible people?
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Old April 15th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #4764
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You are dodging the question. I don't give a shit about tax fine. Explain to me how a private organization that is lobbying for business oportunities in South Korea can be trustworthy on the topic of North Korea? I also don't give a single **** about North Korean propaganda. You claimed to have evidence. Where is it? Are you going to post those links again? What is your credible source that claims this hotel is about to collapse? Remember, we are not discussing politics here but engineering and architecture. So a simple question:
Do you base your opinion that this hotel is unsafe on that EUCOC report?
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Old April 15th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #4765
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Originally Posted by krkseg1ops View Post
Do you base your opinion that this hotel is unsafe on that EUCOC report?
No, he does not!


.... and you know why? Because he has not seen that report, he has just read some links that say there is a report and it says the hotel is crap. However we don't even know if the report really say that, let alone how and why they reached that "conclusion"
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Old April 15th, 2013, 10:06 PM   #4766
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exactly
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Old April 15th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #4767
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Do you believe that the report he cites is fictitious?
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Old April 15th, 2013, 11:45 PM   #4768
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Since I've learned that EUCoC had NOTHING TO DO with actual infrastructure evaluation nor were they in any way associated with construction of the latter, I will say that I do not believe they had performed any tests whatsoever.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 12:02 AM   #4769
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Do you believe that the report he cites is fictitious?
I believe they just visited, and the report is just what they saw. I also believe no engineering expertise was employed.

Could I be wrong? Of course that's possible, but the first step to find it out, would be to see a copy of the actual report
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #4770
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Originally Posted by testdrive View Post
First time on this thread, interesting debate. Also interesting is the blatant bias people are showing here for one side or the other. So after all the verbiage here I can only conclude that as far as the building goes there is nothing we can say is accurate since people here don't trust the media and by the way don't single out the western media. If you are going to distrust media then distrust all of it including Romania, just saying. Any structural engineers here that have been in the building?
Obviously this was intended for me. Bringing up Romanian media...
You think Romanian media likes this building?!

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Old April 16th, 2013, 02:44 AM   #4771
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I believe they just visited, and the report is just what they saw. I also believe no engineering expertise was employed.

Could I be wrong? Of course that's possible, but the first step to find it out, would be to see a copy of the actual report
I think the NK's did not find the report to their advantage so they did the best they could to spin, hide or eliminate any factual data.

Just like any other gov't would do to keep embarrassing info out of common circulation.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 02:46 AM   #4772
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Did you even read what I wrote? I explicitly stated that crooked elevator shafts are reparable, that surface concrete is restorable and that crumbled surface concrete is not a problem. However it is a symptom, a symptom of poor concrete quality, which is irreparable and a serious problem.

Also, you don't seem to understand what press releases are all about. Press releases are how most research gets into the world and they are always a short summary of the findings of the research. They never go into big detail because they can't, you can't expect people who aren't directly involved with this specific research to read countless pages of documentation. Also, documentation alone is not a magical verification as you portray it, it is just written text, which you can either trust, or not trust. There are countless engineers on this planet and each and every one of them can write endless pages of documentation, but does this mean that therefore it must be true? Nope, at the end the only thing that decides whether something is true or a lie is credibility. Documentation of each of their step during the research is just more text. More text can be faked just as easily as less text and therefore more text does nothing to improve the trustworthyness of an article. You can't 100% proove or 100% disproove most things in life, but with evaluation of credibility you can analyze the odds and therefore learn the probable value of truthfullness of the matter at hand.

Btw, I already explained in my previous post that if companies employ the services of people that are not they employees they often not list their names so that questions regarding the work get directed at them and not at the people they hired, so why do you expect me to repeat it all over again?



You showed me absolutely nothing. You didn't post a single link (other than the link to the Pingan thread, which is completely unrelated to the discussion at hand) and you didn't post a single pic. You only tried to fool the people reading this thread that you have provided evidence, you have not provided anything.

So where is your evidence? If you're so full of "facts" then where are they? All I see is a desperate forumer speculating and playing with words in order to make it appear as if you would know what you talk about

But okay, I will repeat myself again and offer you my speculation:

1, I think there is a reason why you don't post the fake report you found anymore. Everybody can see on the first page that your precious report has North Korean authors. If you are so fond of it then why don't you post it? I posted all of the links I had. Everybody who's seen documentaries knows that everything and everybody in North Korea belongs to the state. The state is notorious for its nonsencial propaganda. Therefore a report which is partially written by North Koreans is a North Korean report and a North Korean report would never say anything bad about something North Korean, because otherwise the North Korean authors would go to a concentration camp together with their entire family. A North Korean report on a North Korean building has absolutely zero credibility, therefore it is invalid evidence, debunked evidence, if you will. I think the fact that you aren't posting the link to it anymore speaks volumes about what are your thoughts about it.

2, Um, tell me, what has dailymail to do with this hotel? It had an article about it, yes, and I said the article was well written, but even untrustworthy news networks may have good articles from time to time. What matters is that I DIDN'T INCLUDE this article in my 18 links, because it doesn't come from a trustworthy source, therefore your essay about dailymail is off topic.

3, And I see that again you think that solely by your speculation you can understand what is profitable for Orascom and what isn't and that you can understand Kempinski's intentions, all of this without seeing their contracts. No, you have no clue what is profitable for them and what isn't. North Korea might very well have given Orascom a deal with which it would gain money even if the hotel collapsed. Also you seem to forget that if North Korea would say the hotel was blown up by American agents and would not let in any foreign investigators, nobody could connect that hotel's collapse with Orascom.

4, And once again I have to repeat myself, the deal between Kempinski and North Korea is cancelled, and that is all we know, so your speculation about what has happened is well, just speculations without the slightest piece of evidence.

5, I see you're going off topic again. What do WMDs in Iraq have to do with this hotel? Also, the EUChoC in SOuth KOrea was a joint diplomatic organization managed by both the EU and South Korea to promote free trade. Also, did you ever hear of companies hiring the services of proffesionals? The fact that EUChoC is not an engineering company doesn't mean anything because just as everybody else on this planet who has enough money, they can hire the services of engineers. Ever thought about that?

6, And no, you don't know what tourists to North Korea want to see, so you can't speak for them. Also, this issu has absolutely nothing to do with sensationalism. Only very few people are interested in this hotel, so no sensations here.

7, It is funny that you mention Gallileo, because he too had evidence, while the religious leaders who prosecuted him had just their speculation. I have evidence, you have only speculation. Otherwise you would have posted links or pics, cause that is evidence.

8, Also I see you are again raping the word fact and lying your way away from the fact that you didn't provide any evidence at all. 1st, your precious North Korean report had nothing to do with the dutch other than that it was published in their country. In the free world one can publish his/her studies wherever he/she wants. Also, your fantasy that mostly Macedonians and Dutch were duing the report has absolutely no basis in evidence and is just pure wishfull fantasy. otherwise you would post a link. Links are evidence, not your empty words. 2nd, the EUChoC report has 3 facts, that the concrete is of poor quality, that the elevator shafts are crooked and that the building is irreparable. A fact is a concrete statement and these are exact, concrete statements. Also, I see you are full of assumptions which have no basis in evidence. The EUChoC report has composed the three facts I posted above and we know who is responsible for it, namely the EUChoC. Also, you wrongly assume that if they had to hire engineers for the job that these engineers suddenly loose all of their abilities to conduct tests. That's nonsense. Whether an engineer works for an earthquake study institute at a university or he works independently and just happens to be hired by a diplomatic organization doesn't determine whether he is skilled or not. Therefore there is absolutely nothing that would indicate that the engineers hired by the EUChoC were not proficient enough to make a full inspection. Also, if they made the inspection, they must have witnessed the concrete first hand, so your assumption that they somehow magically made measurements if they haven't taken samples is unscientific fantasy.

11, Again I will note that the EUChoC report is the ONLY independent inspection that was carried out on this hotel. The other report you speak about has North Korean authors and is therefore completely untrustworthy and its informative value is therefore nil.

Again I have successfully debunked all of your speculation and again you have provided no evidence at all. You can't hide the fact that you haven't provided a single link or a single pic. You even fear to provide the North Korean report because then all people could see that it has North Korean authors. Do you honestly think that your fantasy speculation can stand up to cold, hard evidence?
1> You don't understand how media corporations work. Agenda first, truth second. It's how they make money. If it goes against what their intended audience wants to hear, they will lose money. In this instance, nobody will read an article supporting this building because it would give the impression that North Korea actually did something good. And most people don't want to accept that.
In NK, the propagnada is blatant. In the West, it's disguised. Societies cannot function without propaganda.

2 You seem to believe South korean documentation on NK building. "ou can't prove 100%", yet you yourself believe 100% of something that doesn't exist.

3. Where is it faked? Only by disproving the statistics, can you say you've debunked something. That's the definition.

4. ""However no agreement has been signed since market entry is not currently possible," she said, adding in a phone conversation that the discussions had been halted.
'Halted' generally refers to 'temporarity stopped' and 'not currently' is the key word. They have the ability to come back.

5. Ping An is related as it shows the extent of western media bias. Not a single question was raised about whether or not it was a corrupt payoff by the concrete company, (A possible scenario in China) as you claim Orascom did.

6. I've given you the facts, you dismiss them as propaganda. You've read the report (or maybe you didn't, seems more likely).

7. Yes, if it came directly from NK, it might happen, but it has MORE (repeat MORE) writers from Macedonia and publishers from Netherlands. The macedonians can confirm their findings true as they witnessed it firsthand in 1992. Unless you are willing to claim they are in NK conspiracy.
A conspiracy for some European earthquake engineering textbook barely anybody's heard of. All for glorious name of honorable leader, right?
You repeat that it's fake with such pride, yet give not which aspect is fake...

8. Dailymail has a propaganda report. They've lied that they went there, and you like it only because it slanders NK. That's what the media-taught masses do. The mere fact you support a media giant whose sheer meanness killed an innocent woman says a lot about the truth you are willing to sacrifice, and the villains you are willing to support, to spread your agenda of "Slaughtherhotel" You can't stand the fact that most people on this thread disagree with you, and the media giants.
You'd probably go insane from reading a whistleblower website!

9. I personally know people who have been to NK, like my uncle who visited shortly after the fall of ceaucescu. (Romania was treated just as bad as NK) He wasn't a sociopath intent on going there to watch people suffer, but instead to see how the country differed from his own. Unfortunately, the Ryugyong wasn't on the skyline then. My former economics teacher visited NK, to study its system, back in late 90s. See how assumptions can differ from reality?

10 The definition of religious is incredible support of an idea with no base, an idea that is usually mass-printed. For example, the mass printed bias against a building, with only some comments by an unknown group of people from a defunct comission slandering its enemies. On the other hand I have a report with statistics, that you cannot disprove unless you dismiss it as propaganda. And this in not the way to prove a point. If you were a lawyer in court, and you used the exact evidence you had now, versus my evidence (written, named, sourced report) you would lose the session.

At what point does a building switch from 'repairable' to 'irrepairable'?
Plus, that's a subjective term. What is the concrete quality, how can they be sure the crookedness wasn't caused by the forms? How did they send engineeris on this site? These are questions that must be answered, and you aren't doing that.

Quote:
" so your assumption that they somehow magically made measurements if they haven't taken samples is unscientific fantasy."
My point exactly. The fact that no measurements are given allows me to question whether or not it actually was unscientific fantasy.
It's a circular reasoning fallacy.
"How can the Word of God exist if there's no God to give that Word?"

Plus you haven't answered how South korean engineers made it up there. Did they tip-toe past the guards?

11. Nk has never blamed USA for anything except for imperialism (Which is true, excused by "humanitarianism" and a corporate agenda.)
Do you really think the masses of the West would believe NK when they say USA blew up Ryugyong? Of course not. How would blowing it up benefit USA in any way? Orascom would be main suspect, in that case, especially by the US if such a thing happened (which it won't).

12. I find it amazing how two comments is 'cold hard evidence' yet when a list with statistics is presented "people can make it up, and you can't prove it 100%"


Here's the report you ask for. (as if I've somehow lost faith in it or something?)
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/art..._vol5_2789.pdf

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; April 16th, 2013 at 02:51 AM.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 02:57 AM   #4773
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Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
I think the NK's did not find the report to their advantage so they did the best they could to spin, hide or eliminate any factual data.

Just like any other gov't would do to keep embarrassing info out of common circulation.
You think NK has any power whatsoever over what SK writes about it?
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Old April 16th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #4774
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There are actually 4 different reports a.k.a. studies from that Institute.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 11:17 AM   #4775
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Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
I think the NK's did not find the report to their advantage so they did the best they could to spin, hide or eliminate any factual data.

Just like any other gov't would do to keep embarrassing info out of common circulation.
I don't see how nk could do that when their is no evidence that anyone connected with the report actually went to nk or actually accessed the building site. If you read all these articles you would notice repeatedly mentioned that 'according to pictures of the structure'. In addition the organization that issued the so called report is(was) a lobbyist in s. korea representing EU interest and in no other case did it occupy itself with structural analysis of a building, being that it was not part of its job.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 11:29 AM   #4776
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http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/tenth_conf_spain/

As for the real tests done on the hotel, they were presented at the Tenth World Conference on Earthquake Engineering in 1992. I am still struggling to understand what would the hidden agenda be behind faking the results. Besides, wouldn't the rest of the engineers 'debunk' the report immediately if it wasn't real?
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Old April 16th, 2013, 11:36 AM   #4777
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Evians new head-quarters.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #4778
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if we could only transform all the negative feelings and the energy put into making this building look bad into electricity...we would not need any other power plant in the world...
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Old April 16th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #4779
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Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
I think the NK's did not find the report to their advantage so they did the best they could to spin, hide or eliminate any factual data.

Just like any other gov't would do to keep embarrassing info out of common circulation.
What are you talking about? Do you have any idea what are we talking about here?
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Old April 16th, 2013, 03:09 PM   #4780
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Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
1> You don't understand how media corporations work. Agenda first, truth second. It's how they make money. If it goes against what their intended audience wants to hear, they will lose money. In this instance, nobody will read an article supporting this building because it would give the impression that North Korea actually did something good. And most people don't want to accept that.
In NK, the propagnada is blatant. In the West, it's disguised. Societies cannot function without propaganda.

2 You seem to believe South korean documentation on NK building. "ou can't prove 100%", yet you yourself believe 100% of something that doesn't exist.

3. Where is it faked? Only by disproving the statistics, can you say you've debunked something. That's the definition.

4. ""However no agreement has been signed since market entry is not currently possible," she said, adding in a phone conversation that the discussions had been halted.
'Halted' generally refers to 'temporarity stopped' and 'not currently' is the key word. They have the ability to come back.

5. Ping An is related as it shows the extent of western media bias. Not a single question was raised about whether or not it was a corrupt payoff by the concrete company, (A possible scenario in China) as you claim Orascom did.

6. I've given you the facts, you dismiss them as propaganda. You've read the report (or maybe you didn't, seems more likely).

7. Yes, if it came directly from NK, it might happen, but it has MORE (repeat MORE) writers from Macedonia and publishers from Netherlands. The macedonians can confirm their findings true as they witnessed it firsthand in 1992. Unless you are willing to claim they are in NK conspiracy.
A conspiracy for some European earthquake engineering textbook barely anybody's heard of. All for glorious name of honorable leader, right?
You repeat that it's fake with such pride, yet give not which aspect is fake...

8. Dailymail has a propaganda report. They've lied that they went there, and you like it only because it slanders NK. That's what the media-taught masses do. The mere fact you support a media giant whose sheer meanness killed an innocent woman says a lot about the truth you are willing to sacrifice, and the villains you are willing to support, to spread your agenda of "Slaughtherhotel" You can't stand the fact that most people on this thread disagree with you, and the media giants.
You'd probably go insane from reading a whistleblower website!

9. I personally know people who have been to NK, like my uncle who visited shortly after the fall of ceaucescu. (Romania was treated just as bad as NK) He wasn't a sociopath intent on going there to watch people suffer, but instead to see how the country differed from his own. Unfortunately, the Ryugyong wasn't on the skyline then. My former economics teacher visited NK, to study its system, back in late 90s. See how assumptions can differ from reality?

10 The definition of religious is incredible support of an idea with no base, an idea that is usually mass-printed. For example, the mass printed bias against a building, with only some comments by an unknown group of people from a defunct comission slandering its enemies. On the other hand I have a report with statistics, that you cannot disprove unless you dismiss it as propaganda. And this in not the way to prove a point. If you were a lawyer in court, and you used the exact evidence you had now, versus my evidence (written, named, sourced report) you would lose the session.

At what point does a building switch from 'repairable' to 'irrepairable'?
Plus, that's a subjective term. What is the concrete quality, how can they be sure the crookedness wasn't caused by the forms? How did they send engineeris on this site? These are questions that must be answered, and you aren't doing that.



My point exactly. The fact that no measurements are given allows me to question whether or not it actually was unscientific fantasy.
It's a circular reasoning fallacy.
"How can the Word of God exist if there's no God to give that Word?"

Plus you haven't answered how South korean engineers made it up there. Did they tip-toe past the guards?

11. Nk has never blamed USA for anything except for imperialism (Which is true, excused by "humanitarianism" and a corporate agenda.)
Do you really think the masses of the West would believe NK when they say USA blew up Ryugyong? Of course not. How would blowing it up benefit USA in any way? Orascom would be main suspect, in that case, especially by the US if such a thing happened (which it won't).

12. I find it amazing how two comments is 'cold hard evidence' yet when a list with statistics is presented "people can make it up, and you can't prove it 100%"


Here's the report you ask for. (as if I've somehow lost faith in it or something?)
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/art..._vol5_2789.pdf
1, Wrong, media feed the people with lies only if they can get something out of it. They do it for money. If the information is too insignifficant in interest to the people they won't bother twist it. This way they have a lot of truthfull articles which help them gain a good reputation, which will then help them if a scandal breaks out after somebody finds out that they issued lies about a story which sparks HUGE INTEREST in the people. This hotel is just not interesting enough to be worth it lying about it. You apparently don't understand how the media work very well.

2, I don't believe anything from the internet for 100%, I never said that. I only said that I believe the EUChoC report as much as I am willing to believe something on the internet. So let's say for 98%.

3, Wrong, disproving credibility is enough to debunk a text. I will once again give an example I gave already on multiple occasions in the past. I say that yesterday I was abducted by aliens and had sex with a grey alien while flying arround Jupiter. You can't disprove any of these claims, so are you willing to believe them? I bet you don't. Why? Because of how uncredible such statements are. And a North Korean report about a North Korean hotel is just as uncredible as my alien date story.

4, Purely your speculation. The only fact is that the deal got stopped. Whether it will resume in the future or not is completely unknown by us and claiming anything else is just wishfull thinking.

5, I learned of the Pingan problem just recently and haven't done any research about it so far, so I won't talk about it, because unlike you, I don't talk about something about which I know nothing about.

6, No, you've given me just one link which's credibility I've 100% debunked. In other words, you've given me nothing.

7, You apparently don't know anything about publishing. More writers don't have to represent a bigger part of the report. It only means that all of the listed people did at least something in the report. Anything else is pure speculation. Also, a publisher is not involved in a study, so it has nothing to do with the Netherlands. As to what the Macedonians "witnessed", that is again decided only by the credibility of the report, however, I've proven that the credibility of that report is nil. As to why would the Macedonians do it? C'mon, there are endless possibilities. They were bribed, they were threathened, they wanted to save some friends in North KOrea from a concentration camp ........ there are countless possibilities, so your argument is invalid.

8, Did you even read what I wrote? I explicitely said that I don't trust dailymail as a source and therefore I DIDN'T include it in my evidence links. I only said that I think the article about the hotel it had was good. One good article doesn't make a trustworthy portal. It is you who kept screaming how biased they are and how they never were there, in other words pure wishfull speculation on your part again.

9, What has this to do with the matter we're discussing here?

10, Exactly, science is searching for evidence, religion is making things up. I search for evidence while you make things up. I provided 18 independent credible articles and 1 independent credible book. I also provided 4 photos. This is hard scientific evidence. You only provided 1 absolutely not independent paper that has zero credibility. So you see, it is you who is assembling a religion here.

Also, you again fail to see an obvious, logical truth, writing details is not the same as doing details. You say that "oh, but they've written so much about it in that North KOrean report" .... So what, every engineer can write a full fantasy engineering report. More text does not mean more credibility. Also, the opposite is true as well, less text doesn't mean less credibility. Just because the EUChoC in their PRESS RELEASE didn't spam multiple pages of documentation doesn't mean that it isn't trustworthy because A, we do have an author, namely the EUCHOC and B, what they listed is perfectly conclusive. Mass of text does not indicate anything. The only thing that matters is credibility.

Oh, and I would definitely win at a court, because using a North Korean report as evidence for a North KOrean hotel is as if you would use a report written by the accused person as evidence to free this accused person. Any court would agree with me that reports written by the accused have zero credibility and are invalid as evidence.

11, Your speculation, which is based on your beliefs, what the people would believe would mean nothing, Orascom wouldn't be punished at all as long as North KOrea wouldn't want to punish it and they might very well have in their contract that they would indeed not want to punish Orascom in such an event. But this is only speculation, we know absolutely nothing about their contract, so neither you nor me can claim what is and what isn't profitable for Orascom.

12, Oh my, again you mistake written details for done details. When will you finally understand that text is just text andeverybody can write text. The mass of a text does say absolutely nothing about credibility. Only the credibility of the source matters in assessing the credibility of a text. Every single engineer on this planet could write you a full engineering report without ever setting foot out of his flat. Writing is not the same as doing.

OK, that would be for you, other than that I'm going to answer some other things I saw in this thread.

Quote:
Since I've learned that EUCoC had NOTHING TO DO with actual infrastructure evaluation nor were they in any way associated with construction of the latter, I will say that I do not believe they had performed any tests whatsoever.
Any organization with enough money can buy services of engineers. Take a bank for example, how is it that they aren't working in a forrest but in a building since they aren't engineers? because they hired engineers to make them a building.

And yes, I base all of my conclusions on this hotel on the EUChoC report, from which I saw 3 main conclusions reported by 19 credible sources. These 3 conclusions are that the concrete used in the construction of the hotel was of very poor quality, the elevator shafts are crooked and the building is irreparable. And yes, if a building is made entirely of poor quality concrete it is irreparable.

And finally, the presence on a World Conference for earthquake engineering means nothing. Not everybody in academic enviroments is tarstworthy. As to why they would lie, I've already listed many possibilities earlier in this post , the main being money.

So again in this discussion we reached a point where I got countless credible evidence yet the defenders of this hotel have only very few evidence that was completely debunked. I listed all of my findings in reaserching this hotel in this thread, so I encourage everybody to make their own conclusions about what to believe.

And for krkseqops, who wanted to list the evidence again, well, it all is listed on page 236 of this thread with the exception of the link to the book, which is on page 238 of this thread. No need to repost this after such a short time after
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