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Old November 7th, 2013, 03:13 AM   #5141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyll.Ing. View Post
One thing can be said for certain: The thing stands upright today, and it has stood upright for two decades now. Probably it will remain upright for many years to come.

Also keep in mind, that with all the militarization of the country, they probably know a thing or two about concrete. They have lots of experience from building bunkers, fortifications, tank traps, the like.
These engineers - military or civilian - would probably have been consulted before work was restarted on the Ryugyong Hotel
. If the building, which already had been noted for its half-finished uglyness abroad, was in any imminent danger of collapse, it would probably have been dismantled. Instead, time and money was invested in giving it a nice facade, and a foreign hotel group was invited to start up a hotel in there.
There are lots of steps between "waiting to collapse at the poke of a finger" and "meeting adequate safety standards for housing a hotel", it's not like it's a choice between the one or the other.

From the photos Kanto have posted, we can deduce that something is wrong with it, but it might not be critical enough to warrant a demolition of the tower. The situation isn't dire, but it's not optimal either. Perhaps the problems could be fixed with enough money and effort, but it isn't priority at the moment. Either way, it's standing there today, having become an endorsed landmark of Pyongyang now that the cladding is in place.

You make some interesting points. IT IS STANDING. BUT:

If the country has concrete experts, they sure didn't know about supertall concrete quality because any expert would not pour the next ounce if things started to go so severely out of level and plumb. The sides are off by FEET, and obvious patch-work was visible. Experts don't continue floor after floor with questionable problems occurring (unless they were under pressure to just get it done). AND what did the 'experts' say when re-starting the project? Speak out against it and you were probably removed.

I too believe the building has enough redundancy to stand for a long time. It's not going to collapse even if some columns WERE weaker than others. The problem (and mystery) lies with the fact that it sat empty for so many years. Even the best concrete and methods needs to be maintained by keeping moisture and freezing water out any away from load bearing rebar containing concrete! All those years of freezing and thawing water in the basement/foundation....oy.

I think Orascom repaired and reinforced any structural issues (to the best of their ability), as evidenced by the red column 'covers' shown on some of the outer structure supports. I just want to see INNER STRUCTURE pictures. Is it odd that they would not allow those pictures to be shown when others were? They had the opportunity to show all was well and shut us up....they didn't.

For the North Koreans, the site of the unfinished tower was an obvious embarrassment, so they found a way to cover it at minimum expense to them. Pretty smart. Imagine if the Chicago Spire or the Pentamonium could have been built by negotiating a deal with someone else....
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Old November 7th, 2013, 04:11 AM   #5142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
I just want to see INNER STRUCTURE pictures. Is it odd that they would not allow those pictures to be shown when others were? They had the opportunity to show all was well and shut us up....they didn't.
Maybe they didn't get a chance to visit any of the floors and therefore take pictures of them. They probably just went from the base straight to the top. I don't see any reason why they would have visited them, it's probably just empty concrete rooms like in any other building.

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Old November 7th, 2013, 01:55 PM   #5143
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I think they had to go though the main structure 'lobby' where the elevators are. That is what I would love to see. And the lowest levels, which they obviously would not have passed through. Does anyone know how many underground levels there are, if any?
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Old November 7th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #5144
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First of all, let me thank you KyllIng and Scrapernab that you have brought the discussion from arguing to productive technical talking. This is what I always hoped for in this thread

As to the points, I mostly agree with you two. The one exception being that in my opinion the issue isn't about North Korean engineers not being skilled enough but it's about budget. Budget is as much important for a construction site as is engineering skill. The engineers might have known that what they were building isn't safe, but they couldnpt do anything about it because they were gived a fixed budget by Kim Il Sung and they were ordered to build the building for that budget. For an example I'd like to add that a few months ago a bridge under construction collapse due to poor quality construction over here in Slovakia. It was built by a european company, for which it was their third bridge that collapsed. European Union education standards are definitely up to date so their engineers certainly knew that what they were doing wasn't exactly safe, however they still did it because they were ordered to do it. All just to save money. people like to gamble, and this building might be one big gamble of an old Kim Il Sung. But that is just speculation. We don't know what were the exact reasons that led to building this supertall the way it was built

As to the building collapsing, I always say that it might collapse, not that it will collapse. It might, it might not, we just don't know. But might (if it's under expectable conditions) is enough to deem a building unsafe. I think that it is very well possible that the building might stand for another century. But that is still unsafe because a safe building should be able to stand for approximately another millenium. The thing is that there is a huge space between being unsafe to the extend of being irreparable and being so unsafe that one person entering the building will cause an immediate collapse. Where exactly between these two markers the building stands remains a mystery to all of us. It might stand for another century, or it might collapse tomorrow, there's just no way for us to know. I think that in order to know the exact spots of a possible collapse there would have to be done an extensive independent computer modeling study, far beyond an inspection. An inspection can just assess whether the building is straight and what type of concrete it uses but for possible collapse scenarios detailed computer modeling is needed. I am looking forward that if the regime will fall one day, such an extensive independent study will be made
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Old November 10th, 2013, 07:43 PM   #5145
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there are quite few photos of North Korea on instagram
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Old November 10th, 2013, 11:56 PM   #5146
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Quote:
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.... in my opinion the issue isn't about North Korean engineers not being skilled enough but it's about budget. Budget is as much important for a construction site as is engineering skill. The engineers might have known that what they were building isn't safe, but they couldnpt do anything about it because they were gived a fixed budget by Kim Il Sung and they were ordered to build the building for that budget. For an example I'd like to add that a few months ago a bridge under construction collapse due to poor quality construction over here in Slovakia. It was built by a european company, for which it was their third bridge that collapsed. European Union education standards are definitely up to date so their engineers certainly knew that what they were doing wasn't exactly safe, however they still did it because they were ordered to do it. All just to save money. people like to gamble, and this building might be one big gamble of an old Kim Il Sung. But that is just speculation.
Ask your parents and they will tell you how these things worked back in the Czechoslovak commie era (hint: the opposite)
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Old November 11th, 2013, 12:20 AM   #5147
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And exactly what relevance has the construction industry in socialist Czechoslovakia to this hotel?
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Old November 11th, 2013, 07:37 AM   #5148
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Here are two photos of Pyongyang, quite nice indeed.

The North Korean economic boom - the new Asian tiger.



Traffic jam

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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:02 AM   #5149
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It's fake, a set-up for the camera


Quote:
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And exactly what relevance has the construction industry in socialist Czechoslovakia to this hotel?
It has ALLOT little boy. It's the same (similar) mindset. You screw up you get your head chopped off, so almost everything built in commie era was OVER-ENGINEERED, especially the showpieces (as this hotel) and important infrastructure projects.

.... but what would you know or understand
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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:28 AM   #5150
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If North Korea refoms its economy like China... With all its natural ressources, its cheap labour, its need to compete with the southern neighbour and its strategic position between economic giants... BOOOM

Pyongyang would be Shenzhen on steroids
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Old November 11th, 2013, 03:16 PM   #5151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
It's fake, a set-up for the camera




It has ALLOT little boy. It's the same (similar) mindset. You screw up you get your head chopped off, so almost everything built in commie era was OVER-ENGINEERED, especially the showpieces (as this hotel) and important infrastructure projects.

.... but what would you know or understand
What other than insults have you ever brought to this thread? Wild speculation like in the post I quoted. But not only are you merely speculating, you are also speculating incorrectly because that "mindset" as you call it might just as well mean that you get your head chopped off if you don't build a building on a strict insufficient budget. And if you're budget is insufficient, you can't expect the quality to be sufficient

But as I said, this (and everything you have written in the post I quoted) is speculation, I stick to information, not speculation
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Old November 11th, 2013, 03:21 PM   #5152
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... I stick to information, not speculation
If only you had done that since the beginning of this thread


.... and YES, over-engineering during commie era IS a fact, as it's a fact also that this building stalled because it went over the budged and there were no more funds available to complete it, hence contradicting your latest assumption
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Old November 11th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #5153
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No it is not a fact, you wish it to be a fact but it isn't. It is merely your speculation. If a building in a far away country with a similar regime was overbuilt it has absolutely no connection to this hotel. In fact, it has absolutely no connection to the rest of the buildings in that certain country either.

And besides, in both communism and capitalism there are overbuilt building, standard buildings and underbuilt buildings. You can't say that because of a regime all buildings must be like this or like that. That is pure pseudoscience

Although in my opinion, in countries like North Korea where human lives mean nothing the chance of seeing underbuilt buildings is higher. But that is just my expectation (unlike you I don't pretend that my opinion is fact, only facts are a fact).
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Old November 11th, 2013, 09:31 PM   #5154
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Oh boy...
For god's sake Kanto. Why do you care so much about this building really? It's going to collapse anyway according to you so why bother?
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Old November 11th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #5155
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My motivation is to warn people. That is what I care about. People should know that the building is unsafe and they should be warned that it is dangerous to enter it. The more people see this warning the less people will want to enter the building and the less people might die in a possible collapse. This is about potential life saving.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #5156
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Quote:
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This is about potential life saving.
This is hilarious you actually believe in this
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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #5157
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Quote:
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My motivation is to warn people. That is what I care about. People should know that the building is unsafe and they should be warned that it is dangerous to enter it. The more people see this warning the less people will want to enter the building and the less people might die in a possible collapse. This is about potential life saving.

I am sure proud North Koreans will appreciate all your negative comment about their engineer skills and find your honesty warming.. Get real....
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #5158
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I say again, if the building is to collapse, it will happen because of some event. If it can endure a winter storm or a minor earthquake without apparent damage, it won't fall down under normal operations. If it had been weak enough to collapse "randomly", as in, without any external forces acting on it, it would have collapsed in a strong wind or a minor earthquake when forces were in action. It's not like it waits for a suitable occasion, if it falls it will be because some load limit is exceeded. A collapse requires a trigger point to be reached, either by the loads exceeding what the building can withstand (i.e. strong wind, earthquake), or because the building is weakened until it can't withstand the forces acting on it (i.e. fire, or gradual deformation caused by creep).

Yes, a building can have "hidden ruptures" and hairline cracks and all that, weakening it to dangerous levels, but as all buildings are designed with a certain redundancy, the hidden damages would become very visible before the entire shebang comes down. Significant sagging, creaking coming from the building, minor structural elements failing, cracks widening for days in advance, etc. A building on the brink of collapse will clearly proclaim its failing state, to the point that you wouldn't be allowed to enter it, not that you'd want to anyway.

To put it short, it's next to impossible for a building to go from "fine" to "heap of rubble" in shorter time than it takes to evacuate, without some great appliance of external force. I wouldn't put heavy machinery into the building, or for that matter open a hotel without knowing more about the state of it, but entering it wouldn't be that dangerous if you just look where you go. If it were on the brink of collapsing, a few telltale signs would appear long in advance. The weight of a person would hardly make a difference considering the enormous loads from wind and seismic activity.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 06:03 AM   #5159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
It's fake, a set-up for the camera
no, it's not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U-kO7dAoO8

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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #5160
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Well if this is rush hour that still very little cars No car jams at all.

Also note one thing. Majority of those cars are government cars. I actually couldn't see a single car with orange plate (private) both in the video or the pictures posted. White plates are state owned or military. So it seems the government started lately to replace their soviet era machines for new Chinese models. If they have resources for this "shopping" I guess it can't be bad by it's not like it translates to well being of individual citizens yet.

Btw the video was shoot during National Day Holiday so no wonder streets got a little busy with government cars
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