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Old April 30th, 2015, 02:23 AM   #5441
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You think the NK government would let them build a mast after the hotel they were working on collapsed?
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Old April 30th, 2015, 02:29 AM   #5442
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Sure, even though most big companies lack a back bone it is still rare to find a company with such an absolute lack of any trace of morals that it is actually willing to make deals with North Korea. Kim wants the deal, he would love the building to stand but if it collapses, he won't let it jeoparadise the deal
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Old April 30th, 2015, 02:51 AM   #5443
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So why not just build a mast to begin with? Why would Orascom waste millions on the building putting on a high quality glass facade and podium cladding if NK cares so little for the building that they'll just shrug off its complete collapse? If there was any hint that the building was close to collapsing Orascom would not have put a single cent into it. Especially if they also work in the construction industry.

Then, either North Korea lets them build a mast elsewhere, or Orascom f*cks off.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 02:58 AM   #5444
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Not exactly, you see, Orascom never cared about the hotel. Orascom only worked on it because it was a condition set by the North Korean government. It had to work on the hotel in order to get the deal. Sure, Kim would love to see the hotel stand as a symbol to his sadistic regime, but if it collapsed I seriously doubt he would be angry enough to ruin his deal just for the sake of a collapsed building. He would probably blame it on South Korean saboteurs and use it in his propaganda machine
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Old April 30th, 2015, 03:30 AM   #5445
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So basically you're saying Orascom comes in, asks to set up a 400 million dollar deal involving a telephone network, North Korea says "only if you work on this hotel which is 100% sure going to collapse at any moment now, you can set up phone equipment", Orascom says sure, spends hundreds of millions of dollars on a high quality facade, and then the hotel collapses, and Orascom loses everything they've paid for and their reputation in construction projects. (A building stands fine for 16 years then suddenly Orascom comes in and it collapses??)
And THEN NK says "alright, NOW you can build a mast."

Does that make any logical sense whatsoever? You have to both claim that a) North Korea gives zero shits if the building collapses or not and b) that North Korea cares so much about the building that they make Orascom pay out the ass to make it look nice, JUST to put some antennas on it, so much in fact, that just erecting a mast elsewhere is out of the question.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 03:41 AM   #5446
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Crazy how people can come up with scenarios like this and completely accept that South Koreans entered the Ryugyong Hotel at the height of the Korean famine and made critical judgements on it, then left the country perfectly fine.
I bet they also think Kim's uncle was eaten by dogs, Kim's girlfriend was executed, everyone is forced to get the same haircut as Kim, and that North Korea was the perpetrator of the Sony Hacking.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 04:08 AM   #5447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
So basically you're saying Orascom comes in, asks to set up a 400 million dollar deal involving a telephone network, North Korea says "only if you work on this hotel which is 100% sure going to collapse at any moment now, you can set up phone equipment", Orascom says sure, spends hundreds of millions of dollars on a high quality facade, and then the hotel collapses, and Orascom loses everything they've paid for and their reputation in construction projects. (A building stands fine for 16 years then suddenly Orascom comes in and it collapses??)
And THEN NK says "alright, NOW you can build a mast."

Does that make any logical sense whatsoever? You have to both claim that a) North Korea gives zero shits if the building collapses or not and b) that North Korea cares so much about the building that they make Orascom pay out the ass to make it look nice, JUST to put some antennas on it, so much in fact, that just erecting a mast elsewhere is out of the question.
yes, that is what happened.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 04:10 AM   #5448
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So what is your logic/evidence behind knowing that is what happened? Explain how North Korea can care about a building so much that it takes precedence over their network deal (i.e. building a mast elsewhere), yet care so little about whether or not it ends up standing.

And why Orascom is perfectly fine with spending hundreds of millions on a building that would just collapse anyway, instead of backing out when being denied the chance to simply build a separate cell phone tower to begin with.

It just makes much more logical sense that the building, is, in fact, structurally sound and that Orascom would not have spent their money on it if it wasn't. Orascom even said that restoration would not be troublesome. That would mean that they are outright lying and are fully aware this building will collapse.

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; April 30th, 2015 at 04:39 AM.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 04:47 AM   #5449
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the tower isnt going to collapse, thats your own hyperbole you used to make the argument look outrageous.

structurally unsound is not equal to "about to collapse if a butterfly lands on it like a cartoon".

they also did not spend hundreds of millions on this tower. again, your own misrepresentation of what was stated.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 05:13 AM   #5450
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So what severity of structural unsoundness are you referring to? Slightly unsound, or close to the point where it will collapse? Orascom said they found little wrong with the building. And I presented a scenario where the building would collapse, and you said "that is what happened."

They spent 200 million on it so far
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...120601667.html
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Old April 30th, 2015, 05:51 AM   #5451
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So what severity of structural unsoundness are you referring to? Slightly unsound, or close to the point where it will collapse? Orascom said they found little wrong with the building. And I presented a scenario where the building would collapse, and you said "that is what happened."

They spent 200 million on it so far
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...120601667.html
they spent 200 million on telecom in nk. not on this tower.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 05:56 AM   #5452
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http://travel.cnn.com/north-korea-ry...ng-open-341481
"Construction re-commenced in 2008 when Egyptian telecommunications company Orascom shelled out $180 million to complete the building’s glass fašade"
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Old April 30th, 2015, 07:45 PM   #5453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
So what is your logic/evidence behind knowing that is what happened? Explain how North Korea can care about a building so much that it takes precedence over their network deal (i.e. building a mast elsewhere), yet care so little about whether or not it ends up standing.

And why Orascom is perfectly fine with spending hundreds of millions on a building that would just collapse anyway, instead of backing out when being denied the chance to simply build a separate cell phone tower to begin with.

It just makes much more logical sense that the building, is, in fact, structurally sound and that Orascom would not have spent their money on it if it wasn't. Orascom even said that restoration would not be troublesome. That would mean that they are outright lying and are fully aware this building will collapse.
Problem is, Orascom has already lost the money it invested into the building the moment it invested it. This building is on-hold and unoccupied, so Orascom is really using this only as a guyed mast. Orascom only clad it and nothing more. It would have never invested into the building if it weren't for Kim demanding it and Orascom has pretty much no stakes in the building other than it being its guyed mast. The building isn't what earns Orascom money, it's the telecom deal that does.

Also, as was noted here before, "might collapse" isn't the same as "certainly will collapse within the next 5 seconds", but just because it won't collapse for sure in the next 5 seconds doesn't mean it is sound. As to why Kim went to such lengths to finish the exterior if the building might not be structuraly sound? For the same reason why millions of people visit casinos - it's called hazard games or simply gambling. If the building will stand, it will be a great symbol for Kim, if it collapses, then not, but that is the nature of gambling, you might win and you might lose. Kim might lose the hotel, just as so many people might lose their money in a casino, yet they still visit casinos and play games in them, despite the risks, and so does Kim.
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Old May 1st, 2015, 02:32 AM   #5454
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Even if it was not structurally sound, does it really mean it can not be repair.

Can you add massive amount of support, even if it mean scarify 30% of habitable area, etc.
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Old May 1st, 2015, 02:44 AM   #5455
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Quote:
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And say the building collapsed and they lost everything they've worked for including their antennas. Then what?
That is why we use Insurance Companies, that scenario would make one hell of a big claim!
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Old May 1st, 2015, 06:37 AM   #5456
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Too much propaganda here
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Old May 1st, 2015, 01:16 PM   #5457
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Quote:
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Even if it was not structurally sound, does it really mean it can not be repair.

Can you add massive amount of support, even if it mean scarify 30% of habitable area, etc.
That might be very well possible, although if the concrete of the entire building is defficient, then I think it would be a tremendously expensive undertaking. I am in no way profficient enough to assess this in detail, however if there truly are no sound sections of the hotel, then they would probably have to construct a complete new cage structure within the original structure, that would not only support itself, but also the whole original structure. While indeed possible, there are no reports that would hint that this really happened and in my opinion it isn't probable that Kim would be able to ask Orascom for such a huge investment just to give them access to the telecom deal. I think it is far more probable that Kim simply took the risk and requested only the building to be clad
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Old May 1st, 2015, 05:15 PM   #5458
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It is hard to believe a 300m+ building, expose to weather for decades, with no maintenance, can support its own weight if the entire building has problems.
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Old May 1st, 2015, 06:14 PM   #5459
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Exactly, and that is what worries me
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Old May 1st, 2015, 06:51 PM   #5460
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There is no and never has been any evidence to substantiate any of the rumours regurgitated ad nauseam in this thread. At least 90% of them were likely made up by South Koreans.
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