daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > Supertalls > Proposed Supertalls



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 1st, 2015, 07:14 PM   #5461
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,586

If the building happened to collapse one day, I would admit I was wrong, because I was not convinced by the rumours of structural weakness. (I was also unconvinced of the rumour that Kim's uncle was eaten by 100 dogs, turns out he wasn't.)

However, those who are so sure it will collapse will never admit they were wrong, because they'll just keep saying "It'll fall down any day now, you can't prove it won't!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDave View Post
That is why we use Insurance Companies, that scenario would make one hell of a big claim!
Yeah, they'll sure get a lot of money from Dear Leader Insurance Co.
__________________
Check out my band, Till I Conquer!

Atlantropa liked this post

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; May 1st, 2015 at 07:28 PM.
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 1st, 2015, 07:16 PM   #5462
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

Quote:
Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
There is no and never has been any evidence to substantiate any of the rumours regurgitated ad nauseam in this thread. At least 90% of them were likely made up by South Koreans.
So you would rather listen to North Korean propaganda? Would you rather believe that Kim Jong Un was walking freely when he was 3 weeks old?
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2015, 07:34 PM   #5463
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,586

Was it also North Korean propaganda that clearly showed Kim's "executed girlfriend" making a speech at an event nine months after her supposed execution?

Tons of western media articles agree that her "execution" was just a baseless rumour. Are you going to argue with them?
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2015, 08:08 PM   #5464
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

Problem is, we're talking about the hotel, not about Kim's girlfriend

No media are perfect, perfection in this are is impossible, however Western media are generaly trustworthy while in North Korea there are about six million lies for one single grain of truth. Besides, determining identities of people from insufficient information is sometimes very difficult, look at how many times Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi "died"
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2015, 09:21 PM   #5465
droneriot
Urban Hermit
 
droneriot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cydonia Mensae
Posts: 4,731
Likes (Received): 2750

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
So you would rather listen to North Korean propaganda? Would you rather believe that Kim Jong Un was walking freely when he was 3 weeks old?
That's a very common logical fallacy called a "strawman". Look it up on Wikipedia to see how much you just disqualified yourself.
droneriot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2015, 10:01 PM   #5466
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,586

So at what point do you cross the line between "the media is not perfect" and "I will defend a rumour from the 90s that South Koreans inspected the Ryugyong Hotel"
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2015, 10:33 PM   #5467
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

Quote:
Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
That's a very common logical fallacy called a "strawman". Look it up on Wikipedia to see how much you just disqualified yourself.
I believe this is a perfect example of defense by offense. A common method used by people who have no more arguments to utilize

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
So at what point do you cross the line between "the media is not perfect" and "I will defend a rumour from the 90s that South Koreans inspected the Ryugyong Hotel"
You actually still believe in the conspiracy theory you created about the European Union inspection not existing? Do I really have to again post all the links from credible sources that document that this report really exists? I posted over 20 links documenting the findings of the inspections, do I really have to post them again? *Sigh* very well, here they go:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/06/tr...ers/index.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20178985

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...-north-1482682

http://books.google.sk/books?id=a46g...mmerce&f=false

http://www.quora.com/Architecture/Wh...s-in-the-world

http://happygoluckyworld.com/tag/ryu.../#.UWbW3ZOeNrN

http://www.triposo.com/poi/W__45397243

http://sometimes-interesting.com/201...-the-ryugyong/

http://www.unfinishedbuildings.org/ryugyong.html

http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/131...een-it-before/

http://architectuul.com/architecture/ryugyong-hotel

http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/r/ryugyong-hotel.html

http://www.theruggedgent.com/2012/01...eas-deathstar/

http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/n...rea/hotel2.htm

http://openbuildings.com/buildings/r...l-profile-1690

http://www.hotelowner.co.uk/index.ph...ally-open.html

http://www.hoteliermiddleeast.com/15.../#.UWbY4JOeNrM

http://www.ibtimes.com/north-koreas-...en-2013-858175

http://www.liverpoolwired.co.uk/news...open-next-year

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/North+Korea's+'Hotel+of+Doom'+to+Open+as+Luxury+Venue+in+2013.-a0307270952

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/bacolod/li...failure-279691

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2...f-north-korea/

http://books.google.sk/books?id=wifx...page&q&f=false - page 82
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2015, 11:42 PM   #5468
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,586

Newspaper articles are not evidence - you have to look at their sources. You don't see scholars sourcing Fox News. I could point to the many news articles that stated Kim's girlfriend was executed, or that the building in Benidorm had no elevator. All those articles paraphrased the info from Wikipedia, which in turn sourced that book near the end. So that book is the only thing bringing up the "inspection" to begin with. As far as I can tell, only one paragraph on page 82 makes any claim to the structural integrity of the building.

We have no further details regarding the methodology of the inspection, what measurements were taken, to what extent the building is structurally unsound, why South Koreans were allowed to inspect the building in the first place, the engineering qualifications of those who supposedly inspected the building, or any comment from this Committee following the announcement of reconstruction in 2008.
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 2nd, 2015, 01:19 AM   #5469
droneriot
Urban Hermit
 
droneriot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cydonia Mensae
Posts: 4,731
Likes (Received): 2750

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I believe this is a perfect example of defense by offense. A common method used by people who have no more arguments to utilize
No, you literally used a strawman argument.
droneriot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 2nd, 2015, 02:31 AM   #5470
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,586

Quote:
Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
No, you literally used a strawman argument.
I would say more of a false dichotomy.
ThatOneGuy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 2nd, 2015, 01:46 PM   #5471
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Newspaper articles are not evidence - you have to look at their sources. You don't see scholars sourcing Fox News. I could point to the many news articles that stated Kim's girlfriend was executed, or that the building in Benidorm had no elevator. All those articles paraphrased the info from Wikipedia, which in turn sourced that book near the end. So that book is the only thing bringing up the "inspection" to begin with. As far as I can tell, only one paragraph on page 82 makes any claim to the structural integrity of the building.

We have no further details regarding the methodology of the inspection, what measurements were taken, to what extent the building is structurally unsound, why South Koreans were allowed to inspect the building in the first place, the engineering qualifications of those who supposedly inspected the building, or any comment from this Committee following the announcement of reconstruction in 2008.
And here you explained the major flaw that you have made in assessing this hotel - you believe that if sufficiently elaborate, text can be regarded as evidence. Text is a claim not evidence. A long, detailed and elaborate text is still a claim. Evidence is something physical, while text is something somebody else says, standing or falling on the author's credibility. The only thing text proves is the existence of this text, since if it wouldn't exist you couldn't read it in the first place. Everything else is strictly a matter of trustworthyness, because everything else is a claim.

The links I posted were never meant as "evidence" that the hotel is unsound, they were meant to document that the EU report really exists. They have succeeded in this, since your notion that they all copied from Wikipedia is downright ridiculous. So these links prove that the report exists, but they don't prove that the report's findings haven't been manipulated before they reached these portals and they don't prove that the EU inspection was the real deal and not just a fake. So why do I think that the report is the real deal?

Here is where credibility comes in play. I wasn't in the hotel and didn't make any measurements, so I have no evidence and I will never have any evidence. Don't forget what I said above, text is not evidence, evidence is something physical, something you can measure. So the only way I can assess this stuff is by judging its credibility. The portals that I posted, including many major and very trustworthy media giants like CNN, BBC or Mirror and two books, are credible enough that I believe that they really did their homework and reported the findings of the EU report accurately and from trustworthy sources. But that still doesn't mean that the EU inspection was not a propaganda fake. That's when credibility of the European Union Chamber of Commerce comes into play. This is a very trustworthy and credible organization, so again, because of this I believe that they really did this inspection and they did it proffesiionaly and properly.

So here is how I came to the conclusion that the EU inspection happened, that their report is accurate, that the report exists and that it says that the hotel is structurally unsound. You might say, that it includes a lot of "believe", however as I explained before, so does your assessment because text is not evidence. You can either believe a text or don't believe a text, but unless you make physical measurements, you have no evidence, you have only a claim. I agree with you that arrtcles aren't evidence, but this notion has to be expanded into the form "text isn't evidence" in order to be fully accurate.

A claim, doesn't become evidence when it becomes more and more elaborate. If an untrustworthy source feeds you all kinds of details about methodology, measurements or qualification, it means nothing, because if the source isn't trustworthy in the first place, all of this text may very well be just a lie. Remember, everything that can be written genuinely can also be written as a lie. On the other hand if you get a less detailed text from a trustworthy source, it is only logical to assume that they did all they had to do, that they have proper qualification and did the necessary measurements in order for this to be a solid and real isnpection.

To put the long story short, you have to understand that evidence is something physical and since neither you, nor me have inspected this hotel, all we can focus on are claims of other people. And claims stand and fall only on trustworthyness. If I said that the sky is blue it is a claim. If I would write down all the physical and chemical explanations of why the sky is blue, it would still be a claim. If you would look up into the sky and see it being blue, that would be evidence. There is always the possibility of an untrustworthy claim being true or a trustworthy claim being a lie, however in order to function in this world we sometimes do need to let others do some of the work and to accept their claims, if they are trustworthy. Despite this I still always say that the building might be unsound and that it might one day collapse, because we are truly dealing here with mights. However these mights are the best thing both you and me have, so I think that generaly and under normal circumstainces these conclusions should be accepted.
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:02 AM   #5472
Atlantropa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bari
Posts: 65
Likes (Received): 41


Sorry mate,
if I correctly summarize your point, you say that one or more technical reports have been issued, maintaining that this building may collapse and/or is damaged beyond repair.
Have you read any of them?, can "we the people" see any of them, so to read the exact terms in which those findings have been expressed?
__________________

Kanto liked this post

Last edited by Atlantropa; May 4th, 2015 at 06:38 PM. Reason: orthography (minor edit)
Atlantropa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:47 AM   #5473
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

Yes, there was an inspection organized by the Eurpoean Union Chamber of Commerce in the late 90's. The articles and books I linked to earlier in this page of the thread document the findings of this inspection
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 01:29 AM   #5474
Atlantropa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bari
Posts: 65
Likes (Received): 41

Well, to be honest I'm not so intrested in articles by "major and very trustworthy media giants" making mention of the report — by the way I'm afraid many of those major and very trustworthy media giants said there were WMD in Iraq, or hyper-technological caves digged by "islamic terrorists" in the Himalayas — but in the report itself.
Do we know at least its title and/or its authors' names?, has it ever been released as/within an official document by this "Eurpoean Union Chamber of Commerce"?, has it ever been published on a peer reviewed journal?
Atlantropa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 01:59 PM   #5475
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

Routine inspections like these don't get published in peer reviewed journals. Peer reviewed journals are more or less reserved for discoveries and inventions. However books often get peer review to some degree, so you might want to check out the two books I linked. As to the authors of the inspection, we know that it was organized by the European Union Chamber of Commerce, but large corporations like these usually don't mention the individual engineers in the press release of such an inspection (and what can be found on the net is a press release). However the Chamber of Commerce is a trustworthy organization, so I trust that they enlisted only reputable engineers. Reputation of course doesn't guarantee a good porffesional, even if you would know the name of the engineers, you couldn't guarantee that they are good proffesionals since reputation can be earned or can not be earned, so as I said in my previous post, claims aren't evidence, claims are either trustworthy or untrustworthy. But the Chamber of COmmerce is trustworthy, so I think its proffesionality (and the proffesionality of the engineers it enlisted) in this matter should be trusted

There must have been an official document, or maybe there still is within the archives of the Chamber of Commerce, however this report was published in the nineties, which was a time when internet access was still scarce and most documents weren't published online, so I think it isn't unexpected that the original couldn't be found, However trustworthy sources report of the findings of the inspection, so I think the reports are just as trustworthy as an original paper. But that of course brings us again to trustworthyness. I think the sources I listed are trustworthy, if you don't think that they are trustworthy that changes the whole situation, but that is the nature of sources in general, some poeple trust them, some don't. I personally think that secret services are responsible for the untrue discovery of WMDs in Iraq, the news portals only reported what the secret services said them. News services don't have agents that can infiltrate restricted installations
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 07:27 PM   #5476
Atlantropa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bari
Posts: 65
Likes (Received): 41

I will avoid OT considerations on the trustworthiness of western media, and stick to the point.
Let me see if I got correctly what we know and what we do not.
On the one hand, we have several mentions of this inspection, each reporting that it has been carried out on the behalf of Eurochambres, each agreeing on its findings (the building has some serious flaws), each written with similar wording and no further considerations; most of them are placed within some internet filler articles, whose main point is informing us that 'hotel of doom' is ugly.
On the other hand, we do not know any detail about the inspection other than the customer (who exactly did what why how and when; it seems to me that we do not even know the exact year when the inspection should have taken place...), nor any specific about the publication of its report (authors, abstract, date, etc.); maybe one should add "supposed there has been a publication", which, as far as I get, we do not even know for sure.
If this is correct — and please correct me if I'm wrong — I'm afraid you have a point when repeatedly stressing the word "trustworthy": because in these terms this would be more a matter of believing than of fact.

PS: just imagine NK government maintaining the opposite thesis on similar vague grounds: would you take it as a fact?

Last edited by Atlantropa; May 4th, 2015 at 06:37 PM. Reason: orthography (minor edit)
Atlantropa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 08:22 PM   #5477
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

In your assessment you made the same flaw as ThatOneGuy - you actually believe that text (if sufficiently extensive and adhering to certain criteria) is actually a "fact" as you worded it. But that is simply not true - a text, no matter how extensive and how detailed, is still just a claim, that you either believe or don't believe. Text is all about believing because text always stands and falls on the trustworthyness of its author. The only factual data are physical measurements and calculations that you performed by yourself (or in the case of math that you have mathematicaly verified yourself).

Let me explain it in an example, you said that you would like to see the following details:

Quote:
who exactly did what why how and when; it seems to me that we do not even know the exact year when the inspection should have taken place...), nor any specific about the publication of its report (authors, abstract, date, etc.; maybe one should add "supposed there has been a publication", which, as far as I get, we do not even know for sure).
If you would see the text you listed in your previous post, what would guarantee that that text isn't a lie? How could you be certain, that the author who has written this down did exactly what he said he did? How would you know this? How would you even know that it was him who did that inspection? That is, if there even was an inspection ........ You see, if somebody writes something down, there is absolutely zero guarantee that it is the truth and not just fantasy? I could write you a full essay of how I visited Omdurman last week, yet would it be true because I would say when I was there, what I did there and other details? Of course not, because I haven't left my home city in 7 years.

On the other hand, just because a source doesn't write details doesn't mean that those details don't exist. I can eat turkey for dinner, but I won't write it anywhere down. If I didn't write that I ate turkey, does it mean that I didn't eat turkey? Of course not. Presence of extensive text doesn't guarantee truthfullness and absence of extensive text doesn't guarantee a lie. You said that you don't like how I use the word trustworthyness, however each of us, you, me and everybody else is using trustworthyness in 99,9999% of all the tasks and decisions we do. Knowing means personally doing measurements and calculations, everything else is just believing. Again I will say what I said two posts ago - if I tell you the sky is blue, it is a mere claim that stands and falls on my trustworthyness. If I write down a detailed text detailing accepted theories of physics and chemistry that explain why the sky is blue, it is still a mere claim that stands or falls on my trustworthyness. Only if you look up into the skies yourself will you finally get evidence that shows that the sky is blue.

To put the long story short, I have demonstrated that if a source is trustworthy, it is reasonable to trust that it did all it claimed it did honorably, sufficiently and correctly. If on the other hand you have an untrustworthy source, no detail in the world can make you believe that anything it writes is anything more than lie or fantasy. because I find the sources I listed trustworthy, I believe that what they say is most probably true. because North korea is an extremely untrustworthy source, I don't believe a single word they say
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 09:35 PM   #5478
Atlantropa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bari
Posts: 65
Likes (Received): 41

I'm not sure I really assumed what you say I did, but maybe it's not the relevant point here.
All I'm trying to say is: if the idea that Ryugyong is seriously flawed/beyond repair is supported only by this very same single line on this Eurochambers inspection carried out "in the 90s"/"more than ten years ago" (all the info stop here), then the assertion "Ryugyong is seriously flawed/beyond repair" is completely unsubstantiated.
I may concede that "body falls" or "antibiotics treat infections" are still somewhat forms of belief (I may even concede that pure facts do not exist, etc.); nonetheless "Ryugyong is seriously flawed/beyond repair", when/if said on the sole ground of those (very very low quality) articles about the ugliness of Ryugyong and/or North Korea, would be a completely different kind of belief from "body falls" or "antibiotics treat infections".
Atlantropa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2015, 09:53 PM   #5479
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

The entire difference is in trustworthyness. Trustworthyness however (to both your and my credit) is always a matter of opinion. You find the reports I posted untrustworthy and therefore low quality, fair enough, yet I find them very trustworthy and therefore high quality. Both you and me have to do what we consider is right, so I guess we just have to agree on disagreeing
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/

Last edited by Kanto; May 3rd, 2015 at 10:05 PM.
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2015, 12:37 AM   #5480
Atlantropa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bari
Posts: 65
Likes (Received): 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
The entire difference is in trustworthyness. Trustworthyness however (to both your and my credit) is always a matter of opinion. You find the reports I posted untrustworthy and therefore low quality, fair enough, yet I find them very trustworthy and therefore high quality. Both you and me have to do what we consider is right, so I guess we just have to agree on disagreeing
Kanto, what I find low quality is neither the inspection reports (well, apparently no one here has ever seen any at all), nor the media hosting the links you posted (even if, tbh, the only one with a good reputation seems to be the BBC).
What I find low quality is, for example, each and every article (including the BBC's one) calling the Ryugyong "Hotel of Doom"; say "hotel of doom" and it's entertainment, direttamente e senza passare dal via (an expression my language has borrowed from the Monopoly card "Go directly to Jail. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200", meaning immediately, automatically).
That being said, I happily agree with you on disagreeing.
Atlantropa no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
asia, north korea, potonggang-guyok district, pyongyang, ryugyong hotel

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium