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Old May 4th, 2015, 01:30 PM   #5481
Scrapernab2
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Forget about the reports about the structure. Orascom wanted a cell phone and internet deal, and North Korea wanted to cover the embarrassing looking concrete. As we can see today, North Korea hasn't done anything but put icing on the cake. "on hold" until they blitz us with interior glamour shots.

Now we can go back and judge for ourselves the 'quality of construction'
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Old May 4th, 2015, 03:18 PM   #5482
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Why not show what is actually 'being covered'? See this post:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=934
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Old May 4th, 2015, 03:20 PM   #5483
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Current state of affairs:

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Old May 4th, 2015, 05:47 PM   #5484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
There is no and never has been any evidence to substantiate any of the rumours regurgitated ad nauseam in this thread. At least 90% of them were likely made up by South Koreans.
this is why certain countries have no respect. any criticism and they instantly throw their hands up and blame someone else.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 02:33 AM   #5485
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I think the main point here is not that Eurochambres is an organization so unimportant and/or untrustworthy that any possible inspection conducted on their behalf would be meaningless; I think that the main problem here is that the inspection and its findings are still at the level of a rumour, since:
  1. there's no good evidence that the inspection really took place;
  2. even if it actually did, nobody knows what the inspectors exactly found (and also: how, with what degree of accuracy, etc.).
The "rule" should be: the one who wants to make a claim (such as, in this case, "Ryugong is flawed/beyond repair") has to give other people some good evidence of what he's maintaining. I'm afraid rumours are not.

Last edited by Atlantropa; May 5th, 2015 at 08:37 PM. Reason: orthography (minor edit)
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Old May 6th, 2015, 04:59 PM   #5486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantropa View Post
I think the main point here is not that Eurochambres is an organization so unimportant and/or untrustworthy that any possible inspection conducted on their behalf would be meaningless; I think that the main problem here is that the inspection and its findings are still at the level of a rumour, since:
  1. there's no good evidence that the inspection really took place;
  2. even if it actually did, nobody knows what the inspectors exactly found (and also: how, with what degree of accuracy, etc.).
The "rule" should be: the one who wants to make a claim (such as, in this case, "Ryugong is flawed/beyond repair") has to give other people some good evidence of what he's maintaining. I'm afraid rumours are not.
They aren't on the level of rumor, I provided over 20 trustworthy portals that listed the information, including books and top class news portals.

As to evidence, there never will be evidence unless each of us personally inspects the hotel and conducts measurements - remember, text is not evidence, text is a claim

And the reports I posted do indeed list what exactly the inspectors found - they found, that the hotel is built out of poor quality concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair
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Old May 9th, 2015, 07:21 PM   #5487
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why this project on hold??
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Old May 9th, 2015, 07:27 PM   #5488
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And how much is left until finishing?
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Old May 10th, 2015, 12:41 AM   #5489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelajarfiqih View Post
why this project on hold??
Basically put: Nobody seem to see any need to put loads of money into finishing it. It's hard for foreign companies to do any business in North Korea, and the tower needs loads of work to be able to operate fully as intended. It's cheaper to meet Pyongyang's demand for hotels by building entirely new ones, rather than trying to finish this. With the cladding on, it does the job as a landmark well enough anyway.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 07:09 AM   #5490
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Quote:
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And the reports I posted do indeed list what exactly the inspectors found - they found, that the hotel is built out of poor quality concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair
You don't know exactly what the inspector found unless you have the actual report, no one can claim "is built out of poor quality concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair" are the actual words from those inspectors.

The inspector at the time could have said something like "some elevator shaft are crooked because it used poor quality concrete and those shaft is beyond repair, ...", and maybe heaps of other point.

A journalist (possibly because they hate NK, or just incompetent, or probably lost in translation), has turn those words into "is built out of poor quality concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair", and your 20 or so reliable sources quote from there as that is the only reference they could found.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 10:09 PM   #5491
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Originally Posted by mrfusion View Post
You don't know exactly what the inspector found unless you have the actual report, no one can claim "is built out of poor quality concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair" are the actual words from those inspectors.

The inspector at the time could have said something like "some elevator shaft are crooked because it used poor quality concrete and those shaft is beyond repair, ...", and maybe heaps of other point.

A journalist (possibly because they hate NK, or just incompetent, or probably lost in translation), has turn those words into "is built out of poor quality concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair", and your 20 or so reliable sources quote from there as that is the only reference they could found.
I trust the reporters who have written these reports and therefore I trust that they have translated everything properly. This means that I trust that what they reported is what the original source said and if the original source said that the building uses poor quality concrete, I believe that is what they meant.

Again I will stress that this is text and is trerefore solely in the realm of trust or distrust. Even if I would have the very original of what was produced by the inspectors hired by the EU Chamber of Commerce it would still be only text, text which one either trusts or distrusts.

I listed only the text I have found, I have not used any speculations. On the other hand your notions that "some elevator shaft are crooked because it used poor quality concrete and those shaft is beyond repair, ..." is pure speculation, it is nowhere written. If you don't trust the people who reported the findings of the inspection in the 20 links I posted, that is your choice and you have a right to do this. You must of course do what you consider right, however keep in mind that your whole point stands or falls on whether you trust the sources or not, just as does my point and the points of everybody else on this forum. Nobody has evidence, so it all comes down to text vs text, trustworthyness vs untrustworthyness - this is the nature of written claims
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Old May 11th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #5492
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I think it's scary that you'll go to such extreme lengths to defend information that you cannot possibly know the origin of (and screw The European Chamber of Commerce- I've never heard of it and I actually follow European politics and business on a daily basis).

Odds are that the thing is structurally on the point of collapsing. And other odds are that it's not. None of us know. You don't either.

Finishing this building or not finishing this building is a catch 22:

It seems as if they wasted lots by having almost finished it and not completing it but on the other hand a country only managing to (so I've been told) feed it's people by threatening nuclear war begging for handouts might actually act rationally if it chooses NOT to spend their far and few apart foreign currency IOU's on finishing a building that no one outside SSC give a toss about - given the situation of the country.

Could you imagine any reason why they don't finish it apart from bad concrete?
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Old May 11th, 2015, 11:57 PM   #5493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KÝbenhavnK View Post

I think it's scary that you'll go to such extreme lengths to defend information that you cannot possibly know the origin of (and screw The European Chamber of Commerce- I've never heard of it and I actually follow European politics and business on a daily basis).

Odds are that the thing is structurally on the point of collapsing. And other odds are that it's not. None of us know. You don't either.

Finishing this building or not finishing this building is a catch 22:

It seems as if they wasted lots by having almost finished it and not completing it but on the other hand a country only managing to (so I've been told) feed it's people by threatening nuclear war begging for handouts might actually act rationally if it chooses NOT to spend their far and few apart foreign currency IOU's on finishing a building that no one outside SSC give a toss about - given the situation of the country.

Could you imagine any reason why they don't finish it apart from bad concrete?
I completely agree with you. One thing I would like to note is that I only defend the trustworthyness of the EU Chamber of Commerce report, I don't claim that the building will certainly collapse. I only say that a trustworhty source has said that the building might be faulty. It might be faulty, and it might be not, there are still many blank spots in today's understanding of the laws of physics in engineering structures. Then there is also the possibility that the report isn't speaking the truth, as is the possibility with all claims we read. Nothing is certain. I deeply apologize if I have not worded my opinions the proper way. I never meant to say anything with certainty, I only intended to demonstrate that the possibility that the hotel might be faulty is all to real and should be taken into consideration, but it does remain only a possibility in a sea of uncertainty and trustworthyness, while being a good indicator in my opinion, is definitely nothing certain, so I completely agree with you
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Old May 12th, 2015, 12:02 AM   #5494
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Old May 12th, 2015, 09:50 AM   #5495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I listed only the text I have found, I have not used any speculations. On the other hand your notions that "some elevator shaft are crooked because it used poor quality concrete and those shaft is beyond repair, ..." is pure speculation, it is nowhere written.
It is not even a speculation, I make it up to illustrate a point. It is possible, that the only "text" available, that you repeatedly quoted, could have originated from somewhere that say something completely different.

I also don't believe, a qualified inspector/group would summarised a building inspection of a 100+ floor building, into those 20 or so words.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:31 PM   #5496
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Pyongyang has really been getting some colour in the skyline recently.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 06:03 AM   #5497
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This building is proposed and not yet U/C? Strange.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 07:56 AM   #5498
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This is a propaganda symbol and nothing more. Someday, when North Korea implodes, this thing will see the demolition crew...
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Old May 13th, 2015, 11:10 AM   #5499
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This is a propaganda symbol and nothing more. Someday, when North Korea implodes, this thing will see the demolition crew...
There are two types of people on this thread: those that understand this building is an exercise in propaganda, and those that think propaganda can be disregarded in favor of aesthetic appreciation.

If you showed me this building and I didn't know where it was, I'd think it was an impressive structure. It doesn't look bad at all.

But once you know that it exists in a country where a brutal dictatorship reigns and people are oppressed, how does that change your view of the building's purpose?

If you saw a bunch of buildings that looked impressive and then found out they were actually a concentration camp, would you still be able to have much appreciation for them? I think most people with even a semblance of decency would say that no amount of architectural merit would make up for their purpose. You'd have to go out of your way to evade what is really going on and maintain an unconscionable detachment between what a building looks like and what it is intended to convey.

This building promotes a cruel lie. It is designed to recruit, in many cases unwittingly, useful idiots. But once you know that, how can your sense of decency and self-respect allow you to continue having any appreciation for it? At some point you have to admit that no matter how impressive it may look, it represents something that is truly horrible.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 11:45 AM   #5500
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Quote:
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[...] and screw The European Chamber of Commerce- I've never heard of it and I actually follow European politics and business on a daily basis. [...]
You can't be serious. The EU Chamber of Commerce is the biggest and most important institution for promoting and enabling international business between EU companies and the rest of the world. They represent and support over 20 million companies in intl. trade and have a network of 1,700 offices around the world.

Obviously you never worked abroad. When I worked in Korea and China I regularily had conatact with them and other chambers of commerce. They organize a lot of networking events, give you free import/export consultation, have connections to top government officials and make many business deals even possible.

back to topic:
I think the building will stay very iconic, even long after the collapse of the current government.
Everything about this building is very unique.

Also i find it fascinating that North Koreans managed to build this gigantic building with quite simple tools and a lack of know-how and resources, 23 years before South Korea had something even close to that.
And the building topped out after just 5 years. That's quite impressive actually, even though its still empty.
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