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Old September 6th, 2010, 12:45 PM   #1661
droneriot
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One might say I didn't feel I was in a hell because we didn't know any other lifestyle. Well, as for me, now I know different lifestyle and I feel sorry for today's kids that they don't have and won't ever have the Soviet childhood.
That's bullshit. The political system of the country one lives in is the last thing the happiness of one's childhood depends on.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #1662
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That's bullshit. The political system of the country one lives in is the last thing the happiness of one's childhood depends on.
That's wrong, of course. Solidarity is something one can and will feel around himself since childhood. Just for an example, the feeling of unity and equality at school is something that can really make a child happy. I'm not saying that it was like that everywhere in the USSR, but judging by the number of people from the minorities, or from the lower classes (in the USSR, all had equal chances to study and obtain free access up to the university), who made it to important posts or became famous artists, I think it is safe to say that this is a very different situation from what we have today in Italy, for one. In Italy, poor families with more than one child have little chances to have him study for a higher education (and poor families, in Italy, are 40 percent of the population). But even in the primary school, differences in census and family origins are already felt and influence the way children interact. That's the sad reality, at least here (but I think, say, the USA are no different).
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Old September 6th, 2010, 01:54 PM   #1663
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I was generally speaking of children that are part of a country's majority. If you are a child who is part of a race, creed or class that is persecuted or neglected by the government, then that can of course have negative effects. But if you're the "kid next door", it doesn't really matter if you are in a communist, capitalist or whatnot country, in that case your happiness depends more on the quality of your parenting most of all.

I mostly speak from direct comparison, being from one of the many families in Germany that were split between two very different systems...
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Old September 6th, 2010, 02:04 PM   #1664
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I was generally speaking of children that are part of a country's majority. If you are a child who is part of a race, creed or class that is persecuted or neglected by the government, then that can of course have negative effects. But if you're the "kid next door", it doesn't really matter if you are in a communist, capitalist or whatnot country, in that case your happiness depends more on the quality of your parenting most of all.
2 things, first, "race, creeds or classes" are not directly "persecuted" by the governments, they are most often at a disadvantage because of lack of money, knowledge, time, "status", and that's the whole point of so-called western-style democracy, to exalt the differences between people, without clearly stating said differences in laws or constitutions. Two, the "quality of parenting" is heavily determined by the situation the family lives in. Take a trip in the Naples outskirts or in Palermo neighborhood like the "Zen" (just to name two that I know of in Italy) and you'll know what I mean. We are not speaking about small figures, mind you, these are the "kids next door" of pretty large areas of the western world (and the majority of its inhabitants). Maybe in "Freistaat Oldenburg" you don't get in touch so easily with said realities, well I don't know whether I should call you lucky or not.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 02:12 PM   #1665
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1. I said persecuted or neglected, which refers exactly to what you just said.

2. If by "the situation the family lives in" you mean that parents who both have to work 12 hours a day to get by obviously can't do as much parenting as parents who aren't away from home as much you are right of course. If you are saying that poor parents are worse parents by default, you are as wrong as one could possibly be.

I have more than enough first-hand experience with poverty, being lowest-class, and being around lowest-class people, and as it comes to parenting, I have observed that there are parents who are as poor as one could get, but invest every cent and every minute of time they have into their kids, while others spend every cent and every spare minute on getting shitfaced while playing World of Warcraft, their children be damned.

Last edited by droneriot; September 6th, 2010 at 02:18 PM.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 03:53 PM   #1666
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cool amusement park with lots of tourist busses, traffic at night, light everywhere, cool skyscraper in the background under construction at night, lots of greenery and amazing monuments, yeah this must be hell!
or photoshop
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Old September 6th, 2010, 03:59 PM   #1667
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...photoshop...
So what? Almost every postcard you buy worldwide, almost every photo that is published for marketing or advertisement is enhanced and improved digitally.

To improve Cameron Diaz face or boobs for Le Vogue is a good thing!?
To improve Hong Kong skyline with HDR is a good thing!?
But to improve Pyongyang skyline is suddenly a bad thing?

Last edited by mibome; September 6th, 2010 at 04:06 PM.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #1668
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cool amusement park with lots of tourist busses, traffic at night, light everywhere, cool skyscraper in the background under construction at night, lots of greenery and amazing monuments, yeah this must be hell!
Like everything in the city it's staged for the tourist pictures. It's probably every bus the city has plus with all the apartments lit I am surprised the power stations didn't overload and brown out amazing what the clone tool can do to save a city that would have bearly enough power to light that monument for 4 hours.

As good as the hotel looks, one can't get past the communist blocks of shite that cover this city. I expect that some of the buildings and half the lights are digitally inserted, lights never look so perfectly arranged as they do on some of the towers, it looks more akin to a model in places, there are elements in there that are plainly not fooling me or many of the people looking at it.

Yeah some of the western postcards are digitally enhanced too, but this is amateurish and obviously designed to impress and look real ... major fail Kimmy.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 05:42 PM   #1669
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It's Kimmy's spying hole
More like Kimmy's glory hole...
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Old September 6th, 2010, 06:35 PM   #1670
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Like everything in the city it's staged for the tourist pictures.
North Korea does not care about it's international image. If they did, they would have hired Chinese web-designers to make the KFA web-site look decent.
All pro-DPRK activities outside of DPRK are private initiative. One notable exception is the Juche Songun blog that is run by the staff of the Moscow DPRK
embassy.

Pyongyang day-time:

[img]http://i35.************/i1z0v5.jpg[/img]
Picture Page | Mark Panama | Flickr

Pyongyang at night:

Picture Page | Pinkie Girl | Flickr
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Old September 6th, 2010, 07:31 PM   #1671
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... major fail Kimmy.
This post (and other posts of yours) are so full of preconceptions. To read that post is like to read from someone who has heard something in the news, probably years ago, and is now repeating it for the rest of his/her life. That is what makes the perfect follower of any ideology.

The world consists of people. Human Beings. Even in North Korea. Even this country can be travelled by western foreigners.

There is an interesting FAQ article by a travel agent that organizes group travel tours to North Korea. All chapters are worth reading – but I recommend reading the chapter called “Should I travel to North Korea?” first.

So instead of making lots of assumptions (or better: instead of mechanically repeating the preconceived opinion with which you were once programmed) about a country and its people, why don’t you just read more about it to give a somewhat more qualified statement.

http://www.koryogroup.com/travel_travelAdvice_faq.php

Don’t worry: it is non-political. (Or is "non-political" a bad thing for you?) Not everything in life is political. There is also something called culture and tradition about a nation, that is worth to be understood, and it is non-political.

The FAQ article above answered some of my questions (even those I did not ask) and actually sparked some sort of interest to going there (will probobly never do that) but at least to learn more about the culture and people first hand. For now I have been reading some more travel blogs about people who actually travelled there and have something to say about their own experience. Strange, but their stories sound so much different than yours - more - uhm... complex?!

It is good to go through life with an open mind. Always question the things you hear. Always get different sources for different angles and views.

Thanks by the way to Zaruka’s post (#1609)

Last edited by mibome; September 6th, 2010 at 07:36 PM.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 09:47 PM   #1672
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That's bullshit. The political system of the country one lives in is the last thing the happiness of one's childhood depends on.
I think you're wrong. The political system forms the way of life, it moulds the character, so it is important. People in Soviet Union had a great confidence in the future, and there was no talking about the "success" having it being measured in cash. Of course, every little boy or girl dreamed of growing up and becoming famous, but it was not all around the money like it is now.

Kids wanted to become astronauts, superstar athletes, doctors, scientists etc., but not, say, tycoons.

Let's look at the big apartment complex back then. All neighbors knew each other and were like one big family sharing both joy and grief. No one had to think twice before coming to visit the family next door. The yard was like a club - retirees played lotto, cards or domino or just seated and talked, kids were playing soccer, hockey or many other games.

People were approximately equal, and people had great sense of security. Moreover - ordinary, common people respected themselves and each other.

And there was no bullshit talk about "security" and "privacy".

As for now - people living at one floor,at one stairlanding, don't know each other. And the division into classes is unimaginable. Suburbs of big (and not really big) cities are converting into ghettos. Everyone is afraid to live, and poor ones are jealous and rich ones are impudent. The future scares. It is not the life - it is the permanent struggle for life. And now we have armoured doors and trellised windows in our apartments instead of being one big family sharing both joy and grief.

So how can I compare these two ways of life? That's why I feel sorry for today's kids - they won't ever have the Soviet childhood.

Sincerely yours,

Pavel Rezvushkin

Last edited by rezvpav; September 6th, 2010 at 10:25 PM.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 09:57 PM   #1673
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You are not comparing two different systems, you are comparing two different times. People in the western countries were a lot happier and a lot more "communal" in the 1960s-1980s as well, today they no longer are. Had the Soviet Union not collapsed, people living there would not be as happy and communal as they were in the 1960s-1980s. It's not the political system that makes the difference when you compare the Soviet Union of the past to life today, it's the times that make the difference.

On a sidenote, I've never known any kids in West Germany who dreamed of being tycoons. Every kid here wanted to be an astronaut, superstar athlete, doctor, scientist etc. as well. No dreams of tycoons, anywhere.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 10:22 PM   #1674
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That's wrong, of course...
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
2 things, first, "race, creeds or classes" are not directly "persecuted" by the governments...
Peloso, that's true. I'd also add that I'm sure people living in the Naples outskirts or in "Zen" neighborhood feel that the society doesn't need them at all. I'm also sure they're ignorant and violent - but it is so because of this reason. They grow up knowing they're the waste of society where only getting the cash counts.

In contrary, if we take a look back at the Soviet Union, we'll see that the working man was the most respected man in the society, - yes, working man, not a wealthy man. The state was building apartments for people, education and healthcare were free at all, rental and utility expenses were tokenistic, as well as payments for kindergarten and pioneer camp (analogous to scout camp). Working people had a confidence in the future and they deeply felt that their country needed them and cared about them and their kids - and it was the truth indeed.

There was no unemployment - in fact, everyone was obligated to work, and voluntary permanent unemployment was a felony crime. And working man had all the social protection described above. People were making a decent living.

Consecutively, working man had the feeling of self-respect, not self-inferiority. Just contrast it to the humiliation that ordinary people you've talked about feel now. Just contrast the confidence in the future, the sense of security with the permanent despair and hopelessness!

Dear Peloso, if you want to, I can send you the January, 1978 National Geographic issue. There's a big article about the Soviet Union in that issue, and it is unprejucided. The life was just like that. If you want me to send it to you please e-mail me to [email protected] or send me a private message with your e-mail address.

Sincerely yours,

Pavel Rezvushkin
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Old September 6th, 2010, 10:35 PM   #1675
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Hm, having a civilized off-topic discussion in this thread for a change was nice while it lasted, but it appears we have now returned to the mindless propaganda, so it's best to end it here.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 10:43 PM   #1676
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You are not comparing two different systems, you are comparing two different times. People in the western countries were a lot happier and a lot more "communal" in the 1960s-1980s as well, today they no longer are. Had the Soviet Union not collapsed, people living there would not be as happy and communal as they were in the 1960s-1980s. It's not the political system that makes the difference when you compare the Soviet Union of the past to life today, it's the times that make the difference.

On a sidenote, I've never known any kids in West Germany who dreamed of being tycoons. Every kid here wanted to be an astronaut, superstar athlete, doctor, scientist etc. as well. No dreams of tycoons, anywhere.
Dear droneriot, thank you for your post. I have also reflected on that and I'd like to say that for Russia, everything had changed when the system had changed. It took just several years. It seemed like everyone has gone nuts.

Maybe I'm wrong and you're totally right, but if it is so, I think the society in Germany is more mature than in Russia and the capitalism is your natural way. In Russia, we have wild capitalism, which is humiliation and slavery. What I'd like to say is that now Northern Koreans live like Soviet people lived in 70's, and that means they are not miserable at all, in contrary with all the propaganda.

Again, thank you for your post! Besides, look at my previous post - I can e-mail you the National Geographic issue.

Sincerely yours,

Pavel Rezvushkin

P.S. Unfortunately, many Russian kids (well, teenagers) dream of being tycoons or even wealthy corrupted bureaucrats. Sad, but it is true.

Last edited by rezvpav; September 6th, 2010 at 10:50 PM.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 10:47 PM   #1677
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Hm, having a civilized off-topic discussion in this thread for a change was nice while it lasted, but it appears we have now returned to the mindless propaganda, so it's best to end it here.
OK if you want to - besides I'm afraid to get a ban for malicious off-topic (afraid of this one)

Thank you!

Sincerely yours,

Pavel Rezvushkin
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Old September 6th, 2010, 11:28 PM   #1678
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So what? Almost every postcard you buy worldwide, almost every photo that is published for marketing or advertisement is enhanced and improved digitally.

To improve Cameron Diaz face or boobs for Le Vogue is a good thing!?
To improve Hong Kong skyline with HDR is a good thing!?
But to improve Pyongyang skyline is suddenly a bad thing?
None of the things that you listed is a good thing, no matter what country it comes from.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:05 AM   #1679
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North Korea does not care about it's international image. If they did, they would have hired Chinese web-designers to make the KFA web-site look decent.
The Korean Friendship Association website really is run by the KFA itself. If it were run by the government, it would look more like real official DPRK sites such as Naenara (currently down) and Uriminzokkiri, which do look like Chinese websites.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:25 AM   #1680
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That's bullshit. The political system of the country one lives in is the last thing the happiness of one's childhood depends on.
I live in Brazil and in the 70's was dictatorship. I was a child and it meant nothing to me.
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