daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > Supertalls > Proposed Supertalls



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 27th, 2010, 09:27 PM   #1861
Mark Rejhon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 47
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
Non-load-bearing floors! lol
You never know. No, I don't mean in the parlance of floors supporting humans, but floors that don't contribute much to the structural integrity of a building (i.e. sections of floors that, if a rectangle was cut out, would not weaken the building's structure noticeably). This happens when a structure is overengineered, and it is a pretty strong building (pyramid with lots of internal pillars -- we all already know The Empire State Building was, for example, overengineered in the days before computer simulations).

You know those circular holes in airplane frame bulkheads? you can add many holes to a building's floor (or any other structural flat plane or board), without sacrificing noticeable amount of structural integrity -- to an extent. They just have to simulate where the load stresses are, and what can be cut out without sacrificing structural integrity of the whole structure (in this case, the Ryugyong building). It's just one of many legitimate engineering methods of, theoretically, finding a new shaft to cut out, to install an elevator.

Even in cases where they might be unable to find a section of floor to create a hole, there are ways to make it avoid sacrificing the structural integrity significantly. Via computer simulation they may have found a place to cut out a new shaft and replace the structural integrity.. For example, floors that connect 4 pillers can easily be replaced with cross-frames connecting the pillars, leaving a hole (in the middle of the floor surrounded by the 4 pillars), a hole small enough to not interfere with integrity, yet a hole in the floor big enough for a usable elevator. Repeat for all floors above and below. Then cross braces between adjacent pillars can be added, to IMPROVING the structural integrity of the building relative to what it was before (due to the cross frames and X braces being added to the pillars). Modern technology already exists to improve structural integrity of an existing building -- look at earthquake retrofits to certain kinds of buildings, for example. So even if removing a section of the floor between pillars did weaken integrity, it could be compensated, via, for example, crossbraces between nearby pillars.

I'm pretty certain this is NOT the technique they used, however, for adding elevators to the building, but this is an expansion of what I really meant. I think they were able to make use of the crooked elevator shaft somehow via other refurbishment techniques, which is probably cheaper.

Structures, especially designed before the era of computer simulation, have often been overengineered. For example, the Empire State Building was greatly overengineered. In the 80's, the DPRK government probably did not have much use of computer technology for the design of the structural integrity of Rygyong. Orascom probably put the whole building into a computer, and found it viable for refurbishment, including elevator. (otherwise they wouldn't have thrown massive investments into a big gamble like this...)
But where taking out, would not sacrifice the structural integrity significantly, and then with further modifications, replace the structural integrity.. For example, floors that connect 4 pillers can easily be replaced with cross-frames connecting the pillars, leaving a hole in the floor big enough for an elevator. Repeat for all floors above and below -- and using the newly added adjacent cross-frames to IMPROVE the structural integrity of the building relative to where it was before (due to the cross frames and X braces being added to the pillars). Modern technology already exists to improve structural integrity of an existing building -- look at earthquake retrofits to certain kinds of buildings, for example.

I'm pretty certain this is NOT the technique they used, however, for adding elevators to the building, but this is an expansion of what I really meant about non-load-bearing floors. I should have been more clear, as it did sound slightly oxymoronic -- but it's an engineering practice used all the time. Truss buildings, for example, have lots of holes. They use cross-braces and such, to obviously improve structural integrity while obviously using less material. Same thing can be done -- cut a hole in the floor, then add cross braces to surrounding pillars, to compensate for the loss of structural integrity caused by the hole. Even this might not be necessary, if computer simulations found a location where there wasn't noticeable stresses and wasn't contributing to the load-bearing capacity of the building. (i.e. in theory, a central spot between four pillars may have been found that was already over-engineered, on all or nearly all consecutive levels above each other.)

Structures, especially designed before the era of computer simulation, have often been overengineered. For example, the Empire State Building was greatly overengineered. In the 80's, the DPRK government probably did not have much use of computer technology for the design of the structural integrity of Rygyong. Orascom probably put the whole building into a computer, and found it viable for refurbishment, including elevator. (otherwise they wouldn't have thrown massive investments into a big gamble like this...) ... I'm not saying Ryugyong was overengineered, but Orascom may have found it may have had more pillars than deemed 'necessary' by a computer simulation for modern criteria found in say, San Francisco biulding codes, that more than greatly compensated for possibly slightly weaker concrete, especially in the light of pyramid-like structural advantages, etc. You really never know unless you're Orascom, who I am pretty sure did their homework...

Again, I'm pretty certain the hole-in-floor technique wasn't the technique used for adding an elevator to Ryugyong (Orascom would have had to exhaust all avenues of reusing the pre-existing crooked elevator shaft, such as shaft-within-shaft technology, various refurbishment techniques to straighten the shaft (if situation made that pratical), or alternatively, novel elevator technology that is based on a hybrid of cablecar/chairlift/minelift/inclinator/elevator/cableless elevator technology (all of which, by the way, are well established technologies, some of which can compensate for some crookedness in a traditionally cable-driven people-mover vehicle trajectory)

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; September 27th, 2010 at 10:00 PM.
Mark Rejhon no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 27th, 2010, 10:29 PM   #1862
Scrapernab2
Registered User
 
Scrapernab2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 96

I see what you are saying.

I still think the basement levels filled with water, for many years. Water would have found ways to reach the metal inside the concrete. You could add new columns to stabilize the building. A building this massive would need a lot! I wonder how much Orascam has done in this area? We probably will never know.
Scrapernab2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2010, 06:41 PM   #1863
Mark Rejhon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 47
Likes (Received): 0

[accidental double-submit removed]

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; September 28th, 2010 at 06:47 PM.
Mark Rejhon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2010, 06:43 PM   #1864
Mark Rejhon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 47
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
I still think the basement levels filled with water, for many years. Water would have found ways to reach the metal inside the concrete. You could add new columns to stabilize the building. A building this massive would need a lot! I wonder how much Orascam has done in this area? We probably will never know.
While I don't work with this stuff, I have read/surfed/watched/witnessed enough (as a person interested in general architecture and engineering accomplishments)

They may have done a combination of structural refurbishment and structural addition (addition of pillars).
Or it might not have been necessary (Ryugyong appeared to have been on slightly sloping ground, allowing possibility of easy drainage -- see photo below)

Witnessing concrete refurbishment techniques on rusted bridge pillars in the highway system in Canada, I saw workers strip out the worst-rusted rebar out of lots of some surfaces and install new rebar, in a labour-intensive process. The bottom surfaces of concrete bridges in highway interchanges. Although only up to half a meter deep (About a foot and a half). It looked like pure craziness to go through all that trouble, but apparently, such refurbishment techniques happen. This is in Canada, where we use lots of salt.

The Big Dig in Boston did some really crazy stuff. Under the mega-weight of skyscrapers and viaducts above, they had to install braces and cages before they could remove pillars (of the overhead viaducts and piles that was blocking way of construction. So, in theory, there's a way to remove a pillar (even if one or few at a time), and totally replace the pillar, but I doubt they needed to do this. (After all, most concrete-grid-lattice buildings are designed to keep standing if one pillar goes -- they may have even done it one pillar at a time to key pillars, who knows?) They might have used laser displacement sensors, to make sure that the building didn't settle more than tolerances (such as a millimeter) during selected basement-pillar replacement, if any was done. I think augumentation was more likely done, that's a lot easier -- just simply add more pillars. Laser sensors have witnessed an apartment skyscraper sinking by a few millimeters while a subway was being dug by a tunnel boring machine, but if only one pillar is removed at a time in a concrete-lattice building that resists elimination of a single pillar, then there might be no issue there.

Possibly, Orascom may have actually installed new pillars in the basement level. You can bet Orascom did a lot of research on refurbishing such a building of advanced deterioriation.

I saw a photograph that showed the hotel on a hill: http://blog.hotelclub.com/strangest-hotel-designs/ .... That may have kept some of the water out. Plus, even a near-bankrupt DPRK government probably did not let water build up in the basement (a sump pump isn't much, after all -- compared to the cost of the building) by installing appropriate drainage, as they did intermittently try to shop their building around (to investors) according to what I've read...

If this was the case, then the basement might have not needed much work at all. That said, regardless of the state of the basement, it appears to have been solvable. Orascom obviously felt comfortable enough to go ahead with this project...

Probably we'll never know as no historical photo of the buildings' interior has ever come out to the public, as far as we all know...

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; September 28th, 2010 at 06:52 PM.
Mark Rejhon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2010, 07:44 PM   #1865
bagak
Rang Chaniago
 
bagak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ranah Minang - Global Traveller
Posts: 1,802
Likes (Received): 125

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincenand View Post
I just love the effect the weather has on this building.
[IMG]http://i55.************/30cn8nk.jpg[/IMG]
Wow.... amazing, hoping the best for North Korean
__________________
Seorang pecundang mengatakan bahwa bangsa Minangkabau adalah bangsa pemimpi yang suka berpangku tangan, tapi kami bangsa Minangkabau berkata, ya kami adalah pemimpi, pemimpi untuk jadi besar dan sukses, itulah sebabnya kami punya tradisi dimana setiap anak lelaki diakhir baligh-nya akan berjalan meninggalkan tanah kelahirannya mencari jati diri dan posisi di masyarakat dan pemerintahan, dan torehan mimpi mimpi bangsa Minangkabau itu bisa dilihat dari sejarah bangsa ini hingga sekarang.
bagak no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #1866
Scrapernab2
Registered User
 
Scrapernab2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 96

If the foundation was constructed with the same quality as some of the visible structure, I also think Orascom must have installed MANY redundant columns as a safety precaution. The thought of the DPRK running electricity to pumps during the 16+ years the building sat unfinished....a little to much for me to believe.

It looks like it's in a valley, not on a hill.
Scrapernab2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2010, 08:21 PM   #1867
Scrapernab2
Registered User
 
Scrapernab2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 96

From an older BBC news story:

The company charged with finishing the Ryugyong is Orascom Telecom, part of an Egyptian conglomerate that took on the rebuilding work - "in partnership with a local firm" - as part of a $400m deal to build and run a 3G mobile phone network in North Korea.

Dozens of Egyptian engineers and some 2,000 local workers are working on the Ryugyong project, which Orascom's chief operating officer Khaled Bichara tells the BBC is "progressing well", despite reported problems with suspect concrete and misaligned lift shafts.

"There have been no issues that have caused us too much trouble," Mr Bichara says. "Most of the work at the moment is coverage of different areas of the building. The first job is to finish the outside - you can't work on the insides until the outside is covered.

"You can see that we have already completed the top of the building where the revolving restaurant will be. After 2010, that's when it will be fully safe to start building from the inside."

How the building will be divided up is not yet finalised the company says, but it will be a mixture of hotel accommodation, apartments and business facilities. Antennae and equipment for Orascom's mobile network will nestle at the very top.

Mr Bichara denies reports that the company's exclusive access to North Korea's fledgling telecoms market is directly linked to the completion of the hotel.

But he says the job is a way of planting a rather tall flag in the ground. "We haven't been given a deadline, we are not tied into doing it by a certain time," he said.

"But when you work in a market like this, where we cannot sponsor things, a project of this kind is good to do - it's word of mouth advertising for us, it builds good rapport with the people - on its own it's a great symbol, one which cements our investment."
Scrapernab2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2010, 10:58 PM   #1868
Mark Rejhon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 47
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapernab2 View Post
If the foundation was constructed with the same quality as some of the visible structure, I also think Orascom must have installed MANY redundant columns as a safety precaution. The thought of the DPRK running electricity to pumps during the 16+ years the building sat unfinished....a little to much for me to believe.

It looks like it's in a valley, not on a hill.
That may be the case. Or the truth is somewhere in between. If water infiltration is slow, and they might have run pumps sometimes in some of the years, then that may have still kept the majority of water out. Which lead to less waterlogging. Damage yes, but kept to non-catastrophic levels. I can't conceivably imagine it was definitively flooded nonstop for a whole decade and a half.

As for a valley -- you might be right.

I've seen that older BBC news story, too. Good to repost, as it confirms what I've already mentioned about this building being multipurpose -- that was one of the sources I was trying to refer to.
Mark Rejhon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #1869
Chad
Kickimus Gluteus Maximus
 
Chad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 37,354
Likes (Received): 3632

It's the best looking supertall in North Korea!
__________________
You have the right to remain silent, everything you say will be misquoted and used against you in the forum

-Imate pravo da ćutite, sve to budete rekli moe i biće upotrebljeno protiv vas na forumu

You know you love me. XOXO.
Chad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2010, 08:31 PM   #1870
Scrapernab2
Registered User
 
Scrapernab2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 96

You are 100% correct, Chad from Bangkok!
Scrapernab2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2010, 08:37 PM   #1871
Saigoneseguy
Vivat capitalismus
 
Saigoneseguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Saigon
Posts: 5,330
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Looks about done. I wonder how a hotel of this size IN North Korea can get full. How many tourists or diplomats can North Korea really have?
That's the hotel owner's business, nothing to do with the developer.
__________________
' ' Si Gn khng bao giờ ngủ - V tiền khng bao giờ đủ '
Saigoneseguy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2010, 04:03 AM   #1872
noms78
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 177
Likes (Received): 244

Sorry to be OT but I think people need to be made aware of how bad life is in NK.

I recently saw some documentaries (including a national geographic one) and people can be arrested/tortured/put in political concentration camps for seemingly minor offences (eg. photography/videography with mobile phones etc...)

Do a youtube search for 'north korea undercover in the secret state', 'north korea famine'.

Last edited by noms78; September 30th, 2010 at 04:09 AM.
noms78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2010, 04:12 AM   #1873
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,956
Likes (Received): 6859

I must admit I actually like that building. The glass facade makes it look elegant and lighter than the gray concrete frame.
Pansori está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2010, 04:53 AM   #1874
tommy949
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 283
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by noms78 View Post
Sorry to be OT but I think people need to be made aware of how bad life is in NK.

I recently saw some documentaries (including a national geographic one) and people can be arrested/tortured/put in political concentration camps for seemingly minor offences (eg. photography/videography with mobile phones etc...)

Do a youtube search for 'north korea undercover in the secret state', 'north korea famine'.
Life is bad but not in the capital
tommy949 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2010, 07:08 AM   #1875
citypia
future is today.
 
citypia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,031
Likes (Received): 567

Quote:
Originally Posted by noms78 View Post
Sorry to be OT but I think people need to be made aware of how bad life is in NK.

I recently saw some documentaries (including a national geographic one) and people can be arrested/tortured/put in political concentration camps for seemingly minor offences (eg. photography/videography with mobile phones etc...)

Do a youtube search for 'north korea undercover in the secret state', 'north korea famine'.
As a south korean, we already fully aware of bad situation in north korea.
But this is a website for skyscrapers or skyscrapercities in the world, NOT FOR THE POLITICS OR LIFE OF PEOPLE IN NORTH KOREA

Please, save your tears.
If you want to talk about the secret of north korea, you would visit tons of sites out there.

Anyway, ironically. South Korea is building more taller skyscraper(334m) in Seoul right now, But it doesn't get much attention here, compare to Ryugyong Hotel.
Why so many foreigners and international people are interested in only skyscrapers in north korea. it is a quite intersting tendency.

Last edited by citypia; September 30th, 2010 at 09:57 AM.
citypia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2010, 07:14 AM   #1876
Russells
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 362
Likes (Received): 123

Actually, NK is the safest place on Earth for tourists. I hope I'll visit it someday. They need dollars and they will do anything to satisfy you.

My friends visited NK and they liked it. Yes, there is no freedom of movement for tourists, but still - very good service. A lots of food and attention for any tourist.

As for this building...hmm..I think they shouldn't use this stupid blue glass.
Brutality is lost((
Russells no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2010, 03:45 PM   #1877
Scrapernab2
Registered User
 
Scrapernab2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 96

As a tourist, the ONLY thing I would be interested in is this structure. That is it.

Spending money to 'see' the country, and "lots of food and attention" can be had in Hawaii, LA, New York, London, Bahamas, Paris, Beijing, Hong Kong, Dubai, Moscow....

In other words, lots of places to visit in the world to see supertalls, or lay on a beach, or see good architecture. DPRK safest place on Earth for tourists? If you behave.

Travel there just to see the outside of this tower from a distance, not close up or inside? Never.
Scrapernab2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2010, 05:02 AM   #1878
mijo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 371
Likes (Received): 108

that tower looks amazing
mijo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2010, 11:11 AM   #1879
Nuwanda
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Christchurch
Posts: 484
Likes (Received): 341

Quote:
Originally Posted by mijo View Post
that tower looks amazing
This tower is not amazing.

It's built upon the blood and suffering of the North Korean people.

The thought of skyscrapers should induce in us a feeling of human triumph, of the majesty of the mind and ability.

This building has been created at the expense of human lives. North Korea is a hellhole. People starve in North Korea. They are slaves to the regime. And this building is not a sign of progress but a cheap and nasty monument to propaganda.

I despise it and all that it stands for.
Nuwanda está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2010, 11:15 AM   #1880
MattSid
Anti-Catholic User
 
MattSid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Roma □ Berlino ■
Posts: 1,135
Likes (Received): 576

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuwanda View Post
This tower is not amazing.

It's built upon the blood and suffering of the North Korean people.

The thought of skyscrapers should induce in us a feeling of human triumph, of the majesty of the mind and ability.

This building has been created at the expense of human lives. North Korea is a hellhole. People starve in North Korea. They are slaves to the regime. And this building is not a sign of progress but a cheap and nasty monument to propaganda.

I despise it and all that it stands for.
The fact that I was build with all the suffer of an entire nation doesn't affect the architectural beauty of this building.
MattSid no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
asia, north korea, potonggang-guyok district, pyongyang, ryugyong hotel

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu