London Trams

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by CroydonDave

We wanna bite of that exclusive pie!!!!! The tube map is a map.... NOt a work of art. If it ain't big enough, add an extra fold.

you're an idiot, i love the tram and i love croydon (Blue orchid RIP), i was devastated when they chopped the 54 at elmers end, used to be my gateway to the place, i just don't think it deserves a place on a rail map, considering it is street based transport.

Originally Posted by CroydonDave

Ok, apparently 'the big boss man' doesn't like the tram, it doesn't fit the post code snobbery of Londons Transport system (DLR). Can Croydon please leave Greater London. I want back into Surrey

The DLR is a segregated high frequency railway, the tram runs on street and is thus applicable to street rules, it was a part of London Buses until the recent TfL take over of it.


And shows how much you know about croydon, it wasn't even in surrey when it joined greater london, it was an independent county borough, just like west ham and east ham. In fact it hadn't been a part of surrey since 1889.

What you talking about postcode snobbery, i believe croydon is much a part of London as anywhere in greater london, i ain't one of them idiots who takes the royal mails' postal counties as gospel, when everyone knows they have never reflected the boundary of any county and city accurately and in places have put towns in completely the wrong county... denham anyone!

[bigbossman]

oh yeah and FYI my thread on Croydon http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=761620

[CroydonDave]

I stand very much corrected. Peace and love

[CroydonDave]

Hello fellow interested in the Trams people. I have been in contact with TFL over the station improvements on the service and this is what they had to say.

"Lebanon Road tram stop, like all the others, is being refurbished in 2 phases.

· Phase one includes a deep clean, re-painting, replacement of bins, new passenger information and repairs to the platform surface.

· Phase two includes re-glazing the shelter, new vitreous enamel signs, new seating and updating the shelter with a Tramlink green edging.

The first phase has been completed for Lebanon Road. The phase two works are scheduled for the end of February but completion date is dependent on the weather"

PS I hope me and the Bossman are cool?

[csk]

Croydon Advertiser article http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...l/article.html

Exclusive: Plan revealed to borrow trams from Germany for Croydon network
by Neil Millard

Tramlink bosses want to bring in trams from Germany to ease overcrowding on the network. With Croydon's 24 trams struggling to cope with ever-greater demand the city of Cologne has been approached in the hope it can offer short-term help. It takes up to three years to order and receive a new tram - at a cost of £2.6 million - so Transport for London (TfL) wants to borrow some in the meantime. At present Cologne doesn't have any spare but TfL hopes the city could provide some in the future. Other cities, including Saarbrucken, in Germany, and Istanbul, in Turkey, are also being considered as possible donors. During the rush hour stations such as Addiscombe, Church Street and East Croydon are beset by overcrowding. Up to 500,000 passengers use the trams each week, five per cent up on last year, and TfL knows something needs to be done.
Spokesman Guy Pitt said: "We're well aware of the problem and are looking at several schemes to try to alleviate it." TfL points out that some sections of the network - where there is only a single track - would not benefit from there being extra trams. So transport chiefs are looking to solve this problem too. "We're looking at doubling track where possible," Mr Pitt added. "Having stretches of single track militates against the sheer number of trams. "The other big problem we have got is Wimbledon because there is just one bit of track there where the trams come in." TfL believes borrowed trams could satisfy commuter demand prior to getting new ones. Mr Pitt said: "We're looking at the possibility of leasing trams from cities such as Cologne who run a similar system to ours. "Unfortunately there are not immediately any trams they have got spare."
TfL took over the network from Tramtrack last June. Soon afterwards there was controversy when new mayor Boris Johnson reneged on his election pledge to build the £170 million Tramlink extension to Crystal Palace, claiming the money was needed for transport projects elsewhere in London. Steve O'Connell, Greater London Assembly member for Croydon, does not think there is an overcrowding problem outside rush hour. But he welcomed the plan to borrow trams, adding: "I think it's evidently sensible. "We are arriving at a capacity issue around rush hour. That needs to be addressed. I think the answer is increasing the number of trams out there. "The trams are almost a victim of their own success." Allan Ramsay, from TfL, meanwhile said that just three extra trams would significantly reduce current capacity problems. But he added that no new trams had yet been ordered to solve the problem long-term and said that station improvements were also being considered as a way of easing overcrowding.


Sounds pretty good, looks like Croydon may be getting some new trams, also sounds like TFL are looking at doubling some single tracks and improving some station layouts in addition to the current upgrade programme. Last time I checked Therapia Lane was the only stop to be fully upgraded. Seems like Tfl are actually going to throw some money at the system to bring it up to an even better standard.

[Nathan Dawz]

Originally Posted by CroydonDave

I just want to gauge people's opinion about adding the tram network to the London Underground map?

I realise that it is not the tube, but neither is the DLR or Overground. This is a TFL run light rail system operating in South London, why is it not included on the map?

This may seem really petty, but my interest is only in boosting the local economy and raising the profile of a often forgotten area.

Any thoughts?

I agree.

I've never understood why Croydon's trams were not included. It's no different from having the DLR on there. At the moment, it looks like South London has next to nothing in terms of rail/light rail transport.

[Plaistow]

I think the trams were built with the potential to replace the articulated mid-section with a longer body thus increasing capacity. Of course this would also mean opening a production line but presumably a shorter-term solution than manufacturing extra trams. (Obviously I'd prefer to see more trams on the system to increase frequencies.)

[labcreation]

As always with transport, South London the poor relation.

[CroydonDave]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/...rd-issue03.pdf

This is an interesting document. I really like the Roundel network identifier on section 2.1.

[csk]

Thanks for that, I've seen something similar to that before, pre-Tfl takeover. However this is obviously a new version, strange then that they don't seem to have followed all of it especially that they've just upgraded the stops. It's a shame that they don't use those Roundel network identifiers at the stops, it could look really good, maybe they'll put them up some time, they also don't appear to have put the network maps in the canopy bays at the tram stops.

[Plaistow]

As CSK mentioned earlier in the thread, TfL have hinted in the past about wanting to borrow or lease more trams. I've just read that Madrid has scaled back its tram plans and now has 22 Alstom Citadis trams spare, 11 of which look set to head to Adelaide to bolster their Bombardier Flexity Classic fleet.

Could the Alstom Citidas trams work in Croydon, obviously with some carriage sections removed? I know that means having a non-standard fleet, but if Adelaide can manage it then surely we could too?

Alternatively, perhaps a deal could be struck whereby Adelaide takes more trams from Madrid and leases some Flexity Classics to us. I'm aware that Flexity Classic are a different family to our Flexity Swift tams but they're both Bombardier products.

Here's the report about Adelaide, although it's illustrated with a Barcelona tram.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/s...5-2682,00.html

Madrid tram (not my pics)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/malter/1251798694/

Adelaide Flexity Classic (page down)
http://www.freewebs.com/adelaiderail...aidestrams.htm

[streetquark]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

because trams aren't grade segregated, they are street vehicles!

it's got nothing to do with running into central london

Croydon Tram is basically segregated except a small amount of street running. Maybe you should campaign for the name to be changed to Croydon Light Rail!

I think the main problem of adding it to the tube map would become apparent if they ever did the North, West and East London Transits. A crazy mess of lines. I'd say docklands is central enough to be an expcetion.

Originally Posted by labcreation

As always with transport, South London the poor relation.

Motorways maybe but not rail. North London only has a handful of network lines and no branches whereas South Lndon has hardly any tube but lots of network rail including branches, alternative destinations and cross-routes plus it has the extensive Croydon Tram.

[RBRJ]

Originally Posted by streetquark

Croydon Tram is basically segregated except a small amount of street running. Maybe you should campaign for the name to be changed to Croydon Light Rail!

I think the main problem of adding it to the tube map would become apparent if they ever did the North, West and East London Transits. A crazy mess of lines. I'd say docklands is central enough to be an expcetion.



Motorways maybe but not rail. North London only has a handful of network lines and no branches whereas South Lndon has hardly any tube but lots of network rail including branches, alternative destinations and cross-routes plus it has the extensive Croydon Tram.

It has more in common with a Tram/Train than a Light Rail. As I understand the definition a Tram/Train runs on both rail alignment and on street, whereas Light Rail does what it says on the tin.

[slipdigby]

Originally Posted by RBRJ

It has more in common with a Tram/Train than a Light Rail. As I understand the definition a Tram/Train runs on both rail alignment and on street, whereas Light Rail does what it says on the tin.

Tram/Train is a bit more involved than whether a route runs on a segregated alignment. The forerunner of modern tram/train operation is generally taken to be the Karlsruhe system in Germany. This operates in town as a conventional modern tram system, but then switches to share heavy rail mainline infrastructure akin to a regional rail service. Therefore the vehicles used must be able to conform to both Deutsche Bahn and local Karlsruhe standards for signalling, loading gauge, crash worthiness, etc.

Although all modern UK LRT/tram systems share their alignment with heavy rail NR infrastructure, none actually share the same track/signalling (the systems are physically separate). The closest example the UK currently has to tram/train is the Tyne and Wear Metro service extension to Sunderland via Network Rail metals. However as the Tyne and Wear system is more akin to a light metro than a modern tram or LRT network, the comparison with "proper" hybrid tram/train operation is not a perfect one. It is however a useful safety/operational/etc. comparator for any future implementation of the concept in South Yorkshire or elsewhere.

Best regards,
Slip

[CroydonDave]

Thanks for your comments Slip.

There are huge activities going on at East Croydon Tram stop. I think that they are relaying the track. I have to say that the work appears to be happening at a very impressive rate.

Still no joy on the tube map thing, but looking forwards to london overground!

[-james-]

It may be happening at an impressive rate but they have run over, they should be finished by now so not to cause problems to school kids that use the trams I guess but they will not finish for another week.

The works in the middle of the cross roads ran over as well.

The temporary tram stop they are using for East Croydon must have been expensive to build and with no ticket machines always has inspectors there for people to pay and explain the route they should take which will cost more.

[poshbakerloo]

The trams I think would be too much disruption in the busy narrow streets...

[RBRJ]

I have often wondered, whilst waiting for a tram at Wimbledon, where the tracks heading north continue to. Whether there have been any suggestions as to continuing the tram on from that point.

[Plaistow]

If you're talking about the trains that share the same platform, then I think they're the First Capital Connect (Thameslink) services via Streatham, Tulse Hill etc. Many of the stations on the route are (or at least, were) managed by Southern despite most of the trains stopping at them being operated by First Capital Connect. I think there is speculation that the services willl transfer to Southern (or the then SouthCental franchise holder) and only run as far as London Bridge once the Thameslink upgrade is complete.

[RBRJ]

Originally Posted by Plaistow

If you're talking about the trains that share the same platform, then I think they're the First Capital Connect (Thameslink) services via Streatham, Tulse Hill etc. Many of the stations on the route are (or at least, were) managed by Southern despite most of the trains stopping at them being operated by First Capital Connect. I think there is speculation that the services willl transfer to Southern (or the then SouthCental franchise holder) and only run as far as London Bridge once the Thameslink upgrade is complete.

No. If you look beyond the buffer, on the same platform that the tram has arrived at, the rails carry on.