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Old December 31st, 2008, 04:37 AM   #41
sotavento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbman View Post
It can easily doubles from what is already existing, maybe a bit more. But that's all. After that it will be stupid to build more, not necessary and really expensive for allmost nothing. As a matter of fact there will be no need for more expansions.

There is still a lot room for expansions. For the moment the French HSR only concentrate on a few important lines and some of them are still unfinished.

My point was just to show you that you were wrong about the limited possibilities. Nothing more. Doubling the allready existing is not really what I will call limited. France is just half way down to... nothing.


As for EMUs :
The EMUs are more and more common these days all over Europe but locomotives will remain usefull and very common. I don't think we will see so soon Fret EMUs (except maybe post haulage like the French La Poste TGVs).
So I was right on the spot ... you just miss the point I was pushing on my previous post ...

Spain has a "need" to build UIC-Gauge lines ... most old railways are either single gauge non electrified over the hills or double track electrified at 3000vDC ... so all recent speed upgrades were "dedicated" HSL or "mixed traffic" HSL built with double-gauge sleepers or UIC only sleepers ansd 25Kv50Hz electrification .. there is phisical a NEED to get a vast network of HST due to the radial disposition of dozens of medium/large cities (ranging from 150.000 to 1 / 5 million habitants scatered everywhere) ... so there are a lot of 300/600km long radial HSR being built.

France has a vast 160/200 km/h network ... so they only built main/troncal HSR routes ... LGV Est alone serves most of the important big cities (Paris-Lyon-Marseille) and is an achor to most international trains (short spur lines).

Just statin a fact and not trying to push any argumentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napo View Post
Italy has nearly 1000 km of HSRL (by next year more than 1000 km) ... a little less than Spain, and you must consider that Italy is much smaller than Spain, in fact in Italy with 1000 km of HSRL link all major and most important cities of the country (Turin, Milan, Bologna, Florence, Rome, Naples), we don't need 3.000/4.000 km of lines.
Yess ... but Italy is ALMOSt entirely served by it's HSR network ... isn't it ???

And I said what I said precisely because YOU DON'T NEED that many mileage as others ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napo View Post
Yes, the Chinese projects are not fantasies ...but spanish...4.000 km of HSRL? But how big is Spain? In Spain you calls "AVE" all new railways that are building. Please...
planed HSR network


Largest cities (some are missing):


Just by looking fast at the maps I can tell you that there are more than a thousand quilometers in service (some 1400/1500km above 250km/h) , more than a thousand built but not in service as HSL yet , more than a thousand currently under construction and a lot more in the planing stages ... in fact most of the routes on that map are "real"(or almost real) and not "ficticional" HSR ... and since in times of financial turmoil they increase public works ...

... I think you get the picture.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 05:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Yeah by 2040 (maybe), when Japan will have MagLev trains operating and some thousand kms of new conventional lines too.

We are talking about existing networks now. Japan has 2,200 kms today, more than any other country. Italy has 800 kms and will have almost 1,000 by next year. Those are two of the four largest HS networks in the world. You put it along with Belgium and Portugal. I think there's nothing more to say.
China=
Japan = ~2200km (how many being built?)
France = ~1250km + the new LGV ???
Germany = ??? 800/900km (track upgrades in germany are so random)
Italy = ~800km (~1000km next year and then what?)
Portugal = ~300/400km (~600/700 km under construction/in project ... 600km more planned for the next years)


Add Korea + taiwan + any other not mentioned above


And I don't compare Italy with belgium AND portugal ... I just put Italy and Portugal in the same level ... over here there were more than 1500km of renewed/reconstructed/upgraded railway lines in the last 10/15 years ... roughly 1/3rd of that is "more than 200km/h" currently ... with some 100km more currently being upgraded to the same HSR standards (also "more than 200km/h" and even some sections being new 250km/h railways) ... and a parallel dedicated HSR network is under construction (160km already asigned ... some 400/500km more to go ahead in the near future) ... but in the most favorable conditions we could never surpass the 2000/3000km of some other networks.


Let me get this straight:

Japan = 2200km
Spain = 1400/1600 >250km/h in operation ... some 1000km (or more) operated at 200km/h (or above) in iberic gauge (plans to more than double that in the next years)
France = More than 1300km >250km/h

You count How many km of >200km/h in operation in Italy ??? (add classic lines at 200km/h to your numbers) ...

The UK for example has a huge (?) network of 125mph (a.k.a. 200km/h) classic lines ... germany also has some ... how many has china nowadays .

Speaking of Italy ... if you don't plan to more than double your HSR network then surely you get stuck in the little railways league with the rest of us.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 05:09 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Wow, that's crazy, high speed trains have completely taken over europe and japan, do you guys have any locomotive driven passenger trains left at all? If so I'm still sure passenger locomotives will soon become obsolete.

there are loco hauled passenger trains in regular service here in portugal ... max speed = 200km/h.

Spain has Talgos (loco hauled) able to go as high as 220km/h ... being phased out on electrified lines (isolated locomotives being replaced by top and tailing the talgo consists with a pair of "talguitos" forming serie 130 emu's) but nonetheless there are also 200km/h diesel hauled talgos and ARCO trains(arco are sets with loco + conventional coaches).

Austria has a planned push-pull 230km/h High Speed train wich will consist of a Taurus locomotive and some new coaches ...

In the UK the 225 Intercity of former GNER is also a push-pull consist able to go 125mph/ 200km/h (wasn' it suposed to go 225km/h?)

Other regular 200km/h trains are abundant everywhere here ... germany , france , switzerland , netherlands(?) , finland(?) ...
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Old December 31st, 2008, 05:15 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
I'm not interested in dick measuring contexts but... Germany has 837 km, hardly *far ahead*.
France and Spain are two of those four countries. The other one is Japan.

Ok it's not four, it's five. Is that relevant?
how many has china ???
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Old December 31st, 2008, 05:44 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
To keep thing in persepective here is a list of nations and size in km²;

Spain 504,782km²
France 675,417km²
Japan  377,835km²
Italy 301,230km²
Germany 357,021km²
GB 244,820km²
PRC  9,596,960km²
USA  9,372,615km²
Russia 17,075,200km²
Prespectives:

1) see the 2 maps above of spain:
Quote:
52 56 Madrid Spain 2905100 5078100
72 143 Barcelona Spain 1497700 3871400
277 378 Valencia Spain 741900 1406600
345 404 Sevilla Spain 704500 1135600
674 470 Zaragoza Spain 607000 607000
558 544 Malaga Spain 539300 748200
996 855 Murcia Spain 366300 366300
998 857 Las Palmas Spain 366000 366000
481 892 Bilbao Spain 351100 879300
1030 896 Palma Spain 350700 350700
1107 993 Valladolid Spain 319400 319400
1115 1003 Cordoba Spain 316100 316100
1219 1123 Vigo Spain 287800 287800
1234 1142 Alacant Spain 283600 283600
1284 1200 Gijon Spain 268300 268300
1390 1317 Granada Spain 244900 244900
1410 1340 A Coruna Spain 241000 241000
1542 1488 Santa Cruz de Tenerife Spain 220700 220700
1556 1503 Vitoria Spain 218400 218400
1689 1649 Oviedo Spain 200700 200700
1695 1655 Elx Spain 199800 199800
1768 1731 Iruna Spain 191900 191900
1813 1779 Jerez Spain 186000 186000
1822 1788 Santander Spain 184800 184800
1823 1789 Cartagena Spain 184700 184700
1846 1814 Donostia Spain 181900 181900
1947 1918 Almeria Spain 171000 171000
2017 1991 Burgos Spain 164400 164400
2082 2059 Salamanca Spain 158600 158600
2143 2122 Albacete Spain 153200 153200
2235 2216 Castello Spain 146700 146700
2303 2285 Huelva Spain 142200 142200
2348 2332 Cadiz Spain 138900 138900
2374 2358 Badajoz Spain 137000 137000
2386 2370 Leon Spain 136500 136500
2481 2465 Logrono Spain 130500 130500
2483 2467 San Cristobal de la Laguna Spain 130200 130200
2742 2727 Tarragona Spain 116200 116200
2814 2798 Jaen Spain 113200 113200
2830 2814 Lleida Spain 112600 112600
2915 2901 Marbella Spain 109500 109500
2925 2911 Ourense Spain 109200 109200
3004 2989 Algeciras Spain 106100 106100
green = cities served by HSR
yellow = cities in islands
black = cities served by conventional rail <200km/h (normaly even under 160km/h)

Smaller than france but double the number of large cities to serve ... also derilic conventional rail network and wrong gauge.

2) france: (LGV in blue)


Quote:
18 97 Paris France 2113000 11293200 (Capital)
243 338 Marseille France 815100 1532400
216 696 Lyon France 444100 1665700
426 762 Toulouse France 406200 975000
441 951 Nice France 334100 943000
581 1157 Nantes France 278800 718700
632 1189 Strasbourg France 270500 652300
858 1419 Montpellier France 229400 464800
447 1509 Bordeaux France 216600 935100
770 1559 Rennes France 211000 526700
1780 1743 Le Havre France 189700 189700
1818 1784 Reims France 185300 185300
203 1824 Lille France 181000 1727500
1927 1898 Saint-Etienne France 173000 173000
712 2031 Toulon France 160700 570800
780 2099 Grenoble France 155100 520000
2146 2125 Angers France 152800 152800
2171 2150 Brest France 151100 151100
2212 2193 Le Mans France 148000 148000
2214 2195 Dijon France 147900 147900
2368 2352 Clermont-Ferrand France 137300 137300
2370 2354 Aix-en-Provence France 137100 137100
2393 2377 Amiens France 135700 135700
2394 2378 Nimes France 135700 135700
2431 2416 Tours France 133400 133400
2445 2430 Limoges France 132700 132700
2583 2567 Metz France 124700 124700
2708 2693 Besancon France 118000 118000
2752 2737 Caen France 115700 115700
2833 2817 Orléans France 112500 112500
2875 2859 Mulhouse France 111100 111100
2931 2917 Perpignan France 108900 108900
2961 2946 Boulogne-Billancourt France 107600 107600
777 3008 Rouen France 105500 523800
3077 3063 Nancy France 103300 103300
underscore = not served directly by existing HSL (a lot of these are in the direct path of the future french LGV expansions)
red = too far away from a HSL for conventional railway (even at 200km/h) to be competitive ... if such lines do exist

good conventional network and cities not that distant from the trunk LGV network.

just to add fuel to the flammes:

3) portugal:

Quote:
133 525 Lisbon [Lisboa] Portugal 558100 2612300
320 1228 Porto Portugal 263600 1210700
1910 1882 Amadora Portugal 175200 175200(Amadora is actualy in urban Lisboa)
2791 2775 Braga Portugal 114300 114300
2802 2786 Setubal Portugal 113800 113800
3090 3076 Coimbra Portugal 102900 102900
3093 3079 Funchal Portugal 102800 102800
Green = cities served by Pendular HST
yellow = cities in islands

100% coverage of 70%/80% of the population with only roughly 250km/500km of HSR (70% with 250km ... 80% with 500km ... the remaining HSR mileage serves other regions) ... also 10% of the population reside on isolated islands (wich leaves almost no one to serve).

Italy and Germany ... I don't even bother to count their cities... but contrary to Spain they have a "sufferable" conventional rail intercity network (and thus the absense of the "need" to built a dedicated HSR network).
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Last edited by sotavento; December 31st, 2008 at 05:49 AM.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 05:55 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napo View Post
Yes, the Chinese projects are not fantasies ...but spanish...4.000 km of HSRL? But how big is Spain? In Spain you calls "AVE" all new railways that are building. Please...

Actually NO!!!

they call AVE only to the NEW built railways that they are building for 250km/h or above ... wich is ... ALL the non slow speed railways ... wich acount for 99,9% of the railways under construction in spain ... wich means ... you are correct ... they call AVE to all of them since all of them are true AVE lines.

And pleas bear in mind this little principle:

Quote:
At all events, high speed is a combination of all the elements which constitute the "system": infrastructure (new lines designed for speeds above 250 km/h and upgraded lines for speeds up to 200 or even 220 km/h, some worked with tilting trains, some not),
Don't you read "italy" all over it ??? I do ...
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
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Last edited by sotavento; December 31st, 2008 at 06:18 AM.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 11:32 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Do they not still use high speed diesel's like these?

Yes they have but I have never seen a loco train on lines serving south of London except Gatwick Express which was a push-pull train now an EMU
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Old December 31st, 2008, 11:33 AM   #48
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What is the advantage of loco-hauled trains over MUs?
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Old December 31st, 2008, 03:01 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Spain = 1400/1600 >250km/h in operation ... some 1000km (or more) operated at 200km/h
Sotavento stop trolling, you just though out numbers without any credibility. This is just one example;

These are oficial data from ADIF (February 2008) since then three streches of "future" HSR have been inagurated (16km on the Galician HSR axis, 22km on the Burgos circumvent and some 10-12km on the Seville-Cadiz line) all still limited to 160km/h and will be for years to come.

Speed equal to or over 250 km/h 1247km
Speed between 200 km/h and 250 km/h 487km
Speed between 160 and 200 km/h 215km
Speed between 140 and 160 km/h 4,725km
Speed between 100 and 140 km/h 3,601km
Speed less than 100 km/h 3,063km


Also AVE just like TGV is a brand, it has nothing to do with HSR lines, in Spain HSR lines are called LAV just like in France they are called LGV and not TGV. Actually on the Zaragoza-Huesca line AVE trains run along a railway partly limited to 160km/h. The same situation you find in France, Italy, Germany, China, USA....
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Old December 31st, 2008, 03:19 PM   #50
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In Spain we have a problem with the signalling in iberian gauge. ASFA is limited at 200 km / h.
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Old December 31st, 2008, 05:11 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Sotavento stop trolling, you just though out numbers without any credibility. This is just one example;

These are oficial data from ADIF (February 2008) since then three streches of "future" HSR have been inagurated (16km on the Galician HSR axis, 22km on the Burgos circumvent and some 10-12km on the Seville-Cadiz line) all still limited to 160km/h and will be for years to come.

Speed equal to or over 250 km/h 1247km
Speed between 200 km/h and 250 km/h 487km
Speed between 160 and 200 km/h 215km
Speed between 140 and 160 km/h 4,725km
Speed between 100 and 140 km/h 3,601km
Speed less than 100 km/h 3,063km


Also AVE just like TGV is a brand, it has nothing to do with HSR lines, in Spain HSR lines are called LAV just like in France they are called LGV and not TGV. Actually on the Zaragoza-Huesca line AVE trains run along a railway partly limited to 160km/h. The same situation you find in France, Italy, Germany, China, USA....
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 05:21 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
France = ~1250km + the new LGV ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
France = More than 1300km >250km/h
Check your figures or wait for others to give theirs when you don't know!

As of Nov. 2007 France had 1785 km of new High Speed Lines (LGV) (1875 km according to RFF, manager of the railway network)

A LGV is a new line dedicated to high speed trains, the commercial speed being 300 to 320 km/h, with a few sections limited to 270 km/h. Not to be confused with the other lines upgraded to allow the TGV trains to run at 220 km/h.

Here's the detail:
LN1 (aka LGV Sud-Est) = 409km
LN2 (aka LGV Atlantique) = 279km
LN3 (aka LGV Nord) = 333km
LN4 (aka LGV Rhône-Alpes) = 115
LN5 (aka LGV Méditerrannée) = 250
LN6 (aka LGV Est) = 304km
LGV Interconnexion Est = 95km
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 08:42 PM   #53
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The spanish can buy as much as trains they want ! after all, these technologies are french and german ones !

The question remains : how Spain can afford so much works on their networks of Train, underground, motorway ?
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 09:58 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caserass View Post
The spanish can buy as much as trains they want ! after all, these technologies are french and german ones !

The question remains : how Spain can afford so much works on their networks of Train, underground, motorway ?
Spain has also his own technology the Talgo 350. I can't answer your question in one sentence but I can advance some reasons
-Until 1992, Spain had never an UIC gauge network.
-Until 30 years ago the country had not a significant motorway network, the country was too poor to invest at those time.
-Iberian geography make any comunications networks more difficult to construct and expensive compare to french or german geography (more viaducts, tunnels or bridges)
-politicians see oportunities to invest the EU funds in infrastructures but the same politicians are ambitious.
-Finally the country want join rapidly the european network and economy.
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 10:12 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napo View Post
Yes, the Chinese projects are not fantasies ...but spanish...4.000 km of HSRL? But how big is Spain? In Spain you calls "AVE" all new railways that are building. Please...
UIC gauge rail network remember Iberian gauge is different

AVE is also a commercial name but we have the habit to call our HSL network (LAV) "AVE" only an habit no more
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 05:04 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Sotavento stop trolling, you just though out numbers without any credibility. This is just one example;

These are oficial data from ADIF (February 2008) since then three streches of "future" HSR have been inagurated (16km on the Galician HSR axis, 22km on the Burgos circumvent and some 10-12km on the Seville-Cadiz line) all still limited to 160km/h and will be for years to come.

Speed equal to or over 250 km/h 1247km
Speed between 200 km/h and 250 km/h 487km
Speed between 160 and 200 km/h 215km
Speed between 140 and 160 km/h 4,725km
Speed between 100 and 140 km/h 3,601km
Speed less than 100 km/h 3,063km


Also AVE just like TGV is a brand, it has nothing to do with HSR lines, in Spain HSR lines are called LAV just like in France they are called LGV and not TGV. Actually on the Zaragoza-Huesca line AVE trains run along a railway partly limited to 160km/h. The same situation you find in France, Italy, Germany, China, USA....
YOU stop trolling ... or you give us DATA or you give us DATA ...

I never looked at the speed charts of your railways ... and one tends to forget that except one or two routes your conventional "main lines" are limited at 160km/h ... add to it the "slow" aproaches to each and every main station and one gets a 10/20% reduction on mileage as easily as that.

1- I claimed 1400km .. .so its 1247km
2- I claimed "some" 1000km ... it's 487km
3- Then ... add the 215km of "above" 160km that are not at 200km/h
Nevermind the 4,725km between 140 and 160 km/h



I would like to know the italian , german , british and french numbers for those first two categories ... and I would specialy like to know about numbers of the 3rd one ... some people here would be shocked just by looking at them.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 05:08 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanico View Post
Check your figures or wait for others to give theirs when you don't know!
~ means aproximately ... and I added + the new LGV


In the next line I wrote More than 1300km >250km/h

So what are you correcting in those two statements ???

Quote:
As of Nov. 2007 France had 1785 km of new High Speed Lines (LGV) (1875 km according to RFF, manager of the railway network)

A LGV is a new line dedicated to high speed trains, the commercial speed being 300 to 320 km/h, with a few sections limited to 270 km/h. Not to be confused with the other lines upgraded to allow the TGV trains to run at 220 km/h.

Here's the detail:
LN1 (aka LGV Sud-Est) = 409km
LN2 (aka LGV Atlantique) = 279km
LN3 (aka LGV Nord) = 333km
LN4 (aka LGV Rhône-Alpes) = 115
LN5 (aka LGV Méditerrannée) = 250
LN6 (aka LGV Est) = 304km
LGV Interconnexion Est = 95km
Thanks for giving us numbers.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 05:10 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caserass View Post
The spanish can buy as much as trains they want ! after all, these technologies are french and german ones !
http://www.talgo.es
Ave serie 102
Ave serie 130

http://www.caf.es
Ave serie 104/5 <<< ex FIAT partnership and now alstom partnership
Ave serie 120/1

Only alstom train is/was the AVE serie 101 (and now the inherited 104/5) (1,2 out of 6)

Only siemens train is AVE serie 103 (1 out of 6)


About the "french and germany" ... just go look at WHO makes a large portion of frenc TGV and german ICE ... starts with a B ...

Quote:
The question remains : how Spain can afford so much works on their networks of Train, underground, motorway ?
simply ... good investment of public (european , spanish national , regional and local) funding ... and private investment (on the tolled highways) ... and a desire to improve infraestructures.

+ investment in infraestructures = higher GDP ...


How do you think things improve here year after year ??? inflaction alone ???
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 05:11 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serdar samanlı View Post
Yes they have but I have never seen a loco train on lines serving south of London except Gatwick Express which was a push-pull train now an EMU
It's almost everything run by DMU's in the UK nowadays ... in the 3rd rail network you would be hard pressed to see a single train run by a locomotive.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
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Old January 3rd, 2009, 06:27 PM   #60
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Man, try to keep your answer to one post. No need to make each time so many of them.
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