Time for Ireland to accept gay marriages

[trainrover]

You know, there was a time when gays and lesbians would frown upon marriage (shit, I can't even tell if I'm spelling it right ) ... same for having kids too, which shouldn't be muddled with adopting them

Wording to the poll question's flippant

[Dvblvnia]

Originally Posted by trainrover

You know, there was a time when gays and lesbians would frown upon marriage (shit, I can't even tell if I'm spelling it right ) ... same for having kids too, which shouldn't be muddled with adopting them

Wording to the poll question's flippant

You're quite right. I remember hearing that the likes of Peter Tatchell who would be quite prominent in the gay rights movement being initially against marriage and having children for gay couples because being gay was seen as something quite different to the traditional modes of sexuality, family creation and so on. Settling down and having a monogamous relationship with the prospect of children was seen as something straight people did.

[trainrover]

You know, when launching this thread, the author quipped 'religious fairy tale', being something that came back full circle

[saoró...]

Originally Posted by Dvblvnia

You're quite right. I remember hearing that the likes of Peter Tatchell who would be quite prominent in the gay rights movement being initially against marriage and having children for gay couples because being gay was seen as something quite different to the traditional modes of sexuality, family creation and so on. Settling down and having a monogamous relationship with the prospect of children was seen as something straight people did.

So? If some random militant activist wants to articulate his particular vision of family values as they relate to different orientations, let the dude have his own mad ideas, but don't assume he speaks for everyone.

My guess is that kind of statement is a reaction to discrimation that his generation would have dealt with, sort of a "we dont want it anyway" kind of thing, if you get my drift. For some reason, some people seem to think gay people have official spokespersons :P I've never heard of that guy, I just googled him now - he's not even Irish, he's British and from a different era. I don't particularly care what he thinks, even if he's for marriage now, all I know is that I have the moral right to marry who the fúck I want, but I don't have the legal right just yet.

Straight or gay, most of us want to get married, some do, some don't. Its a human desire to have a lasting relationship, not a "straight" one. The idea that gay marriage is invalidated by lack of "traditional" precendent is bullshit, gay people have always existed and have always *cringe* fallen in love, it has just regularly been the subject of disregard and discrimination. Fuck tradition, enough is enough.

Im gay, and have grown up in this country for the last 20 odd years, I know nobody cares about this petty crap more. Im glad to see things are moving towards equality, but the fact that I don't have it yet baffles me :P

Whoa, well theres my 3am rant for yous, hehh, apologies

[trainrover]

Your modifier "random" is better suited, I think, to his actions as opposed to his person, plus whatever the randomness here be appears to apply more to his crassness

... Launcher: you really oughta be convincing, not beligerent about this whole matter ?

[Catmalojin]

McAleese in support of same-sex marriage

PATSY McGARRY, Religious Affairs Correspondent

Tue, Oct 09, 2012

FORMER PRESIDENT of Ireland Mary McAleese has said she supports gay marriage. “I have no problem with it at all,” she said.

She held “a very strong view that for centuries now gay people have lived in a dark secretive world of indeterminate loneliness, dreadful complexity . . .” Gay people were “as entitled to live their lives on their own terms, as I do as a heterosexual”, she said. “I’m just thrilled anyone wants to get married”, which was “a great grace”.

Mrs McAleese was speaking in an interview recently recorded with Gay Byrne for his Meaning of Life series. It will be broadcast on RTÉ One television tonight at 10.15pm. She said she had been in Rome since “almost immediately” after she left Áras an Uachtaráin last November. She was studying canon law and said “I see my life writing in that field.”

Asked about her book Quo Vadis?, to be published on October 20th, she said it dealt with collegiality in the church, as agreed at Vatican II, whereby the College of Bishops was to co-govern the church with the pope. “It did not happen,” she said. The College of Bishops had not met since Vatican II, which concluded in 1965.

Her book directly asked the pope where were the structures that allowed for legitimate debate and discussion. “I’m not clear anymore where the boundaries are,” she said. To express dissenting opinion was to be disobedient.

Church leadership lacked “a fair degree of credibility now” as a result of the child abuse issue, she said. “If they could be so dreadfully wrong and take so long about accepting how wrong they were . . . ” and yet “we seem to have arrived at a situation of creeping infallibility about everything”, she said.

Where the ban on women priests was concerned, she felt the church had come “perilously close to infallibility”. She wrote to Pope John Paul wondering, with her views, whether she was really a member of the church anymore.

She got “a lovely letter back on his behalf” assuring her she was but asking her to try her best to accept what was church teaching. She wrote to then archbishop of Dublin Desmond Connell seeking literature on the issue. She found it “wickedly poor scholarship”.

She recalled a “most dreadful encounter” with the former archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Law.

He resigned the post in 2002 over his mishandling of the child sex abuse issue there. In front of an audience of government ministers, officials and ambassadors “he said I was a very poor Catholic president”, she recalled. She replied: “I am not a Catholic president, I’m president of Ireland” where “there were all sorts of people. I’m their president. I happen to be Catholic.”

The cardinal’s view “seemed to be that we in Ireland were completely overwhelmed by a secular media”. She pointed out that people in Ireland were better educated now and that the church frequently lost the argument.

© 2012 The Irish Times

...

[Catmalojin]

Poll finds two-thirds of Irish adults support gay marriage

A poll in today’s Sunday Times finds strong support for a change in the law that would allow for same-sex marriage with all legal entitlements.

Sun, 10:45 AM



A NEW POLL has found that 66 per cent of Irish adults believe that same-sex marriage with all legal entitlements should be legislated for.

The Behaviour and Attitudes poll in the Sunday Times shows strong support for gay marriage among the 971 people who were surveyed earlier this month over a two-week period.

The poll found that 26 per cent of those surveyed believed that the current legislation on same-sex marriage should remains as it currently stands where gay couples can only enter a civil partnership.

Eight per cent said they did not know or had no opinion on the matter.

Support for gay marriage was slightly stronger amongst women than men while more men than women are against legalisation providing for full same-sex marriage.

The poll showed support for gay marriage is higher in urban areas than in rural communities.

A number of local councils have recently passed motions supporting a change in legislation to implement gay marriage in Ireland, while the Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has described it as the “civil rights issue of this generation”.

A number of government ministers have supported his stance but the Taoiseach has so far failed to express an opinion on the matter, saying it is a matter for the constitutional convention which has been delayed.

TheJournal.ie

...

[phil-]

def

[Dvblvnia]

As well as the equality and human rights arguments for granting same-sex couples the chance to get married on the same terms as different-sex couples, there's also an economic argument. Approximately 10% of the population would be gay or lesbian which would mean hotels, wedding planners, marriage counsellors etc. would see their markets instantly grow 10% overnight once rights are extended.

[Catmalojin]

Eamon Gilmore calls for referendum on same-sex marriage
Updated: 15:43, Tuesday, 13 November 2012

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has said he would like to see a referendum on the issue of same-sex marriage "as soon as possible".

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Mr Gilmore said marriage for gay people was a human right.

Asked whether he would like to see a referendum on the issue in the lifetime of this Dáil, Mr Gilmore said he would.

He said: "I don't believe that we should postpone what is a human right and that is one of the reasons why we've asked the Constitutional Convention (to look at it).

"It is one of the first issues the Constitutional Convention will look at," he added.

The convention will meet for the first time next month.

The Tánaiste said the time had come to allow gay and lesbian couples to marry.

Mr Gilmore also said that Ireland's winning of a seat on the UN Human Rights Council was not only a measure of the restoration of Ireland's reputation, but a vindication of the country's human rights record.

He said Ireland's priorities would be freedom of religion, the position of women in many societies and the position of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in some countries.

He added that the international community needed to be more assertive on Syria.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1113/gil...eferendum.html

...

[Catmalojin]

Majority backs same-sex union, poll indicates

STEPHEN COLLINS, Political Editor

Mon, Nov 26, 2012

There is broad public support for same-sex marriage and for most of the other constitutional changes backed by the Government, according to an Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll. Most of those proposed changes will be considered by a constitutional convention which will hold its first meeting next weekend.

The only proposed change that does not meet with public approval is to reduce the voting age to 17.

The survey covered a range of issues and was conducted by Ipsos MRBI to commemorate the company’s 50th anniversary. Details of changing values and beliefs over the past half century on a range of issues including religion, Northern Ireland and Europe will be revealed in The Irish Times in the week ahead.

The poll was conducted among a representative sample of 1,000 voters aged 18 and over, in face-to-face interviews at 100 locations in all 43 constituencies.

The margin of error is plus or minus 3 per cent.

Voters were asked how they would vote in the constitutional referendums planned during the Coalition’s lifetime.

On same-sex marriage 53 per cent said they would vote Yes while 30 per cent would vote No, while 17 per cent have no opinion. Women were significantly more in favour of the change than men and younger voters were the most enthusiastic. Voters over 55 are solidly opposed to the proposed change.

Citizens living abroad

On abolition of the Seanad 55 per cent said they would vote Yes, 22 per cent said No and 23 per cent had no opinion. There is an even spread of opinion on this issue across age, class and region. The Government has committed itself to holding a referendum on this issue and it will not be considered by the convention.

The most popular proposal going before the convention is the one to give Irish citizens living abroad the right to vote in presidential elections. The response here was 68 per cent Yes and 17 per cent No.

On the question of whether the reference to the woman’s life within the home should be removed from the Constitution the most striking finding was the number of people with no opinion.

A total of 41 per cent said the reference should be removed, while 19 per cent said it should not and 40 per cent had no opinion.

© 2012 The Irish Times

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[glitter]

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[Catmalojin]

Calls to follow Britain's lead on same sex marriage
Updated: 08:08, Wednesday, 06 February 2013

The Gay and Lesbian Equality Network is calling for Ireland to follow Britain's lead and move to change the laws to allow same sex marriage.

Last night, the UK parliament voted overwhelmingly to pass the second stage of the Civil Marriage Bill which will give same sex couples the right to marry.

Chair of the Irish Gay and Lesbian Equality Network, Kieran Rose says he is very hopeful that Ireland will follow Britain's lead.

Prime Minister David Cameron hailed a "step forward for our country" after the House of Commons backed the proposals by a big margin of 400 to 175.

However, Labour and Liberal Democrat support masked a massive show of protest by Tories, with 136 taking advantage of a free vote to register opposition.

Just 127 endorsed the proposals at second reading, with 40 more either formally abstaining or not voting.

Environment Secretary Owen Paterson and Welsh Secretary David Jones voted against, while fellow Cabinet minister Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, and Attorney General Dominic Grieve stayed away.

Downing Street will be heaving a sigh a relief after no Government members quit to join a rebellion over the timetabling of the legislation.

Responding to the result on Twitter, Mr Cameron wrote: "Strong views exist on both sides but I believe MPs voting for gay people being able to marry too, is a step forward for our country."

Labour leader Ed Miliband, who saw 22 of his own MPs rebel against the legislation, said it was a "proud day".

He said: "The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs supported this change to make sure marriage reflects the value we place on long-term, loving relationships whoever you love."

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said it was a "landmark for equality".

He said: "Tonight's vote shows parliament is very strongly in favour of equal marriage.

"Marriage is about love and commitment, and it should no longer be denied to people just because they are gay."

The result followed more than six hours of stormy debate on the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill.

Culture Secretary Maria Miller said the legislation would make England and Wales "a fairer place to live", and insisted religious organisations which did not want to conduct gay marriages had protection.

But Tory MPs lined up to condemn the measures - including the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee Graham Brady, who said he had "serious misgivings" over assurances on religious freedom.

Former defence minister Sir Gerald Howarth said that the Government had no mandate for such a "massive social and cultural change", which was not mentioned in the 2010 Conservative manifesto.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0206/366...y-marriage-uk/

...

[Dvblvnia]

I'd say that the British vote has brought the day that Ireland brings about full marriage equality forward a good bit. We tend to follow their lead on a whole manner of policies and their emphatic move to bring in same-sex marriage rights will encourage our government to make progress towards doing the same here. Marriage equality by 2015 I reckon.

[oon27]

Hopefully it won't take too long for us to catch up. I don't know if it is true but I heard that Alan Shatter wants to have the wording for a referendum ready before the year ends.

[Seravia]

I think we will have full gay marriage within the next couple of years. It's been coming for a while anyway. It's going to come up in the Constitutional Convention, and it seems to have a lot of popular support.

[Dan]

It is of course also soon being dealt with in Scotland.

[Catmalojin]

Kerry County Council backs same-sex marriage

The move has been welcomed by rights groups across the country.

KERRY COUNTY COUNCIL has followed a number of other local authorities in showing support for same-sex marriage.

A motion, tabled by Labour Councillor Gillian Wharton-Slattery this week, was carried by a vote of 18 to seven.

To date, 14 county or city councils have backed marriage equality.

“This is a wonderful step by Kerry County Council to raise awareness of this important issue at local level,” said Moninne Griffith, the director of advocacy group Marriage Equality.

Marriage equality is not just a national issue, it’s a local one. It’s about respecting and protecting loving couples and families who are part of our communities and treating them as equal. That is why putting the issue on the agenda at local level is so important. Tralee is hosting its first-ever Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Pride in May this year, and the passing of today’s motion helps to further boost Kerry’s reputation as a place that welcomes diversity and LGBT people.

Last year, some 965 civil partnerships were registered in Ireland but any legislation to provide for same-sex marriage will require a referendum of the Irish people.

The provision of marriage equality is to be discussed at the Constitutional Convention on 13 and 14 April. Although the Taoiseach has previously declined to express a solid view on the matter, Griffith said she would like Ireland to become a leader when it comes to family equality. She has urged citizens to make a submission to the convention through its website to tell government why the issue is important.

According to Wharton-Slattery, about 5.5 per cent of the population of Kerry is gay.

The vote was taken on Monday afternoon during the council’s monthly meeting. Most councillors stuck with the party line and just one – Pat McCarthy of Fine Gael – abstained from the ballot.

The two Healy-Raes were divided on the issue with Danny voting against the motion and Johnny voting in favour.

Significantly, Fine Gael’s John Sheahan and Labour’s Pat Leahy were the only coalition party members to vote against the motion. Other ‘no’ votes came from Fianna Fáil’s John Joe Culloty and Independent Michael Gleeson.

TheJournal.ie

...

[Catmalojin]

The Constitutional Convention examines the issue of same-sex marriage this weekend, it'll be interesting to see the results!

Leading FG figures back plans for referendum on gay marriage
FIONNAN SHEAHAN AND MICHAEL BRENNAN – 12 APRIL 2013

'We've destroyed so many lives, I don't want discrimination'

A referendum on gay marriage is expected to be given the green light by the constitutional think tank this weekend.

And leading Fine Gael figures, including a cabinet minister, are weighing in behind the proposal.

The Constitutional Convention will debate if same-sex marriage should be voted on in a referendum, but the advice being provided to it is being questioned by a member.

Independent senator Ronan Mullen says the explanatory documents circulated to members fail to address all the relevant issues.

Despite Taoiseach Enda Kenny sitting on the fence, the bulk of the Fine Gael delegates on the convention appear to be backing the proposal.

Children's Minister Frances Fitzgerald and party chairman Charlie Flanagan told the Irish Independent they are strongly in favour of gay marriage.

All Labour Party, Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein members and a number of Independent delegates are also behind the proposal. Although two-thirds of the delegates are members of the public, the politicians tend to dominate the debate.

Ms Fitzgerald became the first Fine Gael minister to openly support gay marriage.

She said: "I would certainly favour putting it to the people. I think it's a great compliment to marriage that gay couples would want to be married. I see it as stabilising rather than threatening.

"I also think there's been such dreadful discrimination in this country and we've destroyed so many lives and I don't want to see discrimination continue."

Mr Kenny has declined to say where he stands on gay marriage, insisting it is up to the convention to recommend the holding of a referendum.

His party colleagues Mary Mitchell-O'Connor, Jerry Buttimer and Derek Keating will also be supporting a referendum. James Bannon, Michelle Mulherin and Catherine Noone, all regarded as conservative, are entering the debate "with an open mind".

None of the Fine Gael delegates is openly opposed to a referendum. Labour senator Ivana Bacik said her party's policy was well established and their delegates will vote for a referendum.

Sinn Fein vice president Mary-Lou McDonald said her party had a long-standing position in favour of marriage equality and all its delegates would also be voting for a referendum.

Fianna Fail says its policy on marriage equality is clear, and its four delegates – Sean O Fearghail, Seamus Kirk, Averil Power and Mark Daly – will be supporting the proposal.

A spokesman said: "As the Republican Party, we support marriage equality. All our representatives on the Constitutional Convention are aware of this and will be articulating the party policy on Saturday."

Mr Mullen has written to the convention expressing concerns about some of the expert documents that were commissioned.

In relation to a paper on the impact on children of gay marriage, he says he is surprised by the lack of detail.

"It would have been better for our expert to give us a window into the competing claims within the world of academia and to allow a glimpse of how they critique each other," he said.

"The members of the convention must be left to judge the competing claims for themselves, rather like a jury."

With regard to the legal papers, Mr Mullen said they were "rather short".

"Given the limited time available, we depend on neutral experts to draw our attention to inevitable issues for consideration," he said. "Not all of these have been flagged."

Irish Independent

[Dvblvnia]

This is all very welcome. I'd say that given the all-party nature of support on this issue allied to the large level of popular approval of marriage equality that we'll probably have a referendum/legislation brought forward and implemented in the next 1-2 years. It'll be a great day for Ireland when it becomes about the 15th country in the world to recognise same-sex unions as marriage.