Time for Ireland to accept gay marriages

[Catmalojin]

Originally Posted by odlum833

I don't think they should have full marriage rights but some sort of civil partnership seems appropriate. It is one thing bending the rules to suit different groups but tbh if you claim to be a member of a club, in this case Catholicism, you have to accept the rules as they stand - or simply don't be Catholic until the Catholic Church changes the rules. Lobby from the outside.

When people say marriage rights they mean civil marriage rights in registry offices (not all marriages take place in religious buildings). I don't give two fucks about whether or not the Catholic church supports it - they've lost all moral authority and influence they once held. It's one of those "actions speak louder than words" things.

Originally Posted by plank007

It should be put to the people in a referendum. If they want it fair enough, if they don't want it fair enough.

Although recent polls have shown public support for civil unions at over 80% and gay marriage over 60%, I would be wary putting it to a referendum for a variety of reasons. Not least due to the fact that young people almost universally support such a move, but are the least likely to vote whereas the older generation are more against it and more likely to vote. It would also lead to a horrible and bitter referendum campaign akin to the divorce and abortion referenda of the 1980s and 1990s.

For comparison, in the 1980s public support for divorce was around 70% in polls. In the 1986 divorce referendum, only 36% of people voted "yes".

Anyway, having referenda on social issues like this is stupid. Look at Switzerland, banning minarets. It's also as if saying the US should have left discrimination be and allowed race-segregation continue in southern states because it had public support there.

In short, a referendum should be used only if the Supreme Court say it is required.

[Viking74]

Personally I have no wish to get married at the moment, but what I do resent is other people telling me that I can't, based on their own bigoted or misinformed views. I pay my taxes like everyone else and I am a good decent hard working citizen who is widely respected by my family, work colleagues and friends. My personal life is nobody else's business,and nor should it be. The Catholic Church, or any other Church for that matter should have no say in who can or cannot get married. It is a matter for the State and the State alone.

I believe that stable relationships, no matter who they are between, are good for society as a whole. Why not marriage? Every time the issue comes up, a vile selection assholes come out of the woodwork spewing their usual bullshit about kids and religion etc. It's just become a complete bore at this stage.

[bfast1983]

Exactly.

I don't see why people concern themselves about whether same sex relationships form a partnership. I think it's fair enough if the church doesn't wish to allow it within their four walls, but civil partnerships basically just afford same sex couples the same rights as married couples.

This offers benefits for those in the relationship because they can ensure they are providing for each other after death, they have rights for a number of other things too. However, it will also help society as a whole to have more people forming long term recognised relationships, especially while "traditional" marriages are more often than not ending in divorce.

Why do people concern themselves with stopping others from getting the same rights? I just don't get it - I'm guessing a lot of these people are otherwise racist and xenophobic anyway, so it is probably not just pinpointed at gays. And I really do believe that those who are openly and loudly homophobic have an unhealthy obsession which is derived from not being able to admit or deal with some of their own feelings.

[odlum833]

Our next President will probrably be gay. Senator David Norris going for President - he is very popular - would'nt supprise me if he gets in. So it is not like the world against gays or anything.

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by plank007

It should be put to the people in a referendum. If they want it fair enough, if they don't want it fair enough.

I'm afraid that the general populace are in no position to make decisions on equality laws. As Churchill once said, “The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

.....and he's right. The public is not mature enough to vote on equality legislation, it never has been and won't be for a very long time.

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by odlum833

I don't think they should have full marriage rights .

Why not?


Are you aware of the first ever documented use of the word 'marriage'?

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by belfastuniguy

I'm afraid that the general populace are in no position to make decisions on equality laws. As Churchill once said, “The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

.....and he's right. The public is not mature enough to vote on equality legislation, it never has been and won't be for a very long time.

Showing disdain for democracy then? Typical of the left. However I can gaurantee in any country such a referendum was put to it would be rejected. Ignorance yes - but that is what they think and the majority wins. A referendum would be a disaster in any country for homosexuals.

[belfastuniguy]

Showing disdain for democracy then? Typical of the left. However I can gaurantee in any country such a referendum was put to it would be rejected. Ignorance yes - but that is what they think and the majority wins. A referendum would be a disaster in any country for homosexuals.

Actually.....that's more typical of the right

Churchill was a Conservative.......idiot.

[odlum833]

lol

[plank007]

Well it should go to referendum. End of!

As an Irish citizen I would vote for it. I believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry.

[belfastuniguy]

Why should it go to a referendum?

No other nation on the planet has put it to a referendum, even those that are liberal and open in regard to sexuality. Laws such as these don not require a referendum as they are made by government, government is elected by the people and by default the public has approved.

That's how law making works in a democracy....

[plank007]

I understand this issue is quite close to your heart but please step a back. A nation should be free to decide it's own laws.

I believe it would be accepted anyway.

Another non issue. Get over it.

[belfastuniguy]

If a nation was free to make it's own laws then you would have Catholics still being denied houses in Northern Ireland and blacks still made to use different water fountains in America.

We have a law making process and due procedures for valid reasons. The fact I'm gay has fuck all to do with the issue, more so as I don't even live in Ireland. I'm simply explaining the reality of law making, stop being so naive.

If we had a referendum for every law a government made we'd have a paralysed legal and political process.

[plank007]

You fail to understand politics in Ireland. We have referendums on almost every new major legalisation...

This should go to the people.... and it will in time.

And when it does and gets accepted we will be ahead of the UK who don't recognise full same sex marriage yet.

[belfastuniguy]

You have a referendum on issues that effect the Irish Constitution such as religion, abortion and the EU. Though I didn't see you having one when you enacted Blasphemy Laws, like some backward third world nation......so go figure.

I'm not saying it wouldn't pass, I'm detailing law processes to you.

[plank007]

This, women, thing...



So don't dare ever call Ireland a backward third world nation!!

[belfastuniguy]

She's a fucking bitch, thankfully she can't undo the work Labour did in delivering equality.

[plank007]

Incase anybody doesn’t know

The UK government has a appointed Theresa May as Home Secretary and Minister for Equality who has voted against most gay equality measures.

Who's the backward country now. 5+ years of this shit.

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by plank007

Incase anybody doesn’t know

The UK government has a appointed Theresa May as Home Secretary and Minister for Equality who has voted against most gay equality measures.

Who's the backward country now. 5+ years of this shit.

You still......last time I looked we had more equality laws than you do.....that and blasphemy is not illegal here

[niterider]

Originally Posted by odlum833

Showing disdain for democracy then?

Democracy does not mean everything goes to a referendum. It's also about equality and quality for all in the eyes of government and the law, including its legislative and other institutions.

I hate using this comparison as it's already been raised and is rather apt - try putting equality laws for blacks to a referendum in the past. Just like then, with gay marriage (or unions etc) nobody is saying you must approve of said section of society, but rather they should have as much right to go about their life aspirations just as one does as a heterosexual.