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Old May 12th, 2010, 02:46 PM   #221
vatse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Are there any maps with the existing and/or planned 2+2 roads in Estonia? I know it's possible to track it via Google maps these days but maybe there is some simple map already?

Also, what about a map with traffic volumes?
Re-post from last November -

A map of 2+2 highways in Estonia.
Some of these routes would be built during next 5 or 6 years. Some of these like Tartu-Elva would be built may be even after 15 years.
There are also long term plans for 2+2 highways from (Tallinn) Ääsmäe-Pärnu and Jõhvi-Russian border but they haven't started planning of these routes yet.

image hosted on flickr


Currently they are building 3+3 highway between Tallinn and Maardu instead of current 2+2 highway. Otherwise I think that there are no more updates.
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Old May 12th, 2010, 04:31 PM   #222
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Thanks. Btw, Flickr photos don't work in SSC anymore. I had to copy the address and paste it in the address bar.
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Old May 12th, 2010, 04:58 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Wover View Post
But a very crappy road anyway :p. I was on a bus from Pärnu to Viljandi yesterday and it´s really so crappy.. I did see signs that a road reconstruction is planned, but they should build a completely new road that goes directly from Pärnu to Viljandi, so that there´s no big detour like now.
The highway between Viljandi and Tartu was largely reconstructed recently but you are probably right about the condition of the road between Viljandi and Pärnu. I haven't driven there for ages myself.

A new road between Viljandi and Pärnu is very very unlikely to be built. There's a huge bog between those two towns which would make road construction extremely expensive. That's also the Soomaa national park which is part of Natura 2000 areas and one of only eleven PAN parks. You really have to be a nature hater to build any highways there, especially between two towns as small as Viljandi and Pärnu.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 04:32 PM   #224
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If the things would go smooth in Estonia and the planned with u/c 2x2 highways will be done soon, in not distant future you'll have a 2x2 highway connection wth Russia on St.Petersburg highway!
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Old May 13th, 2010, 06:25 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Triceratops View Post
If the things would go smooth in Estonia and the planned with u/c 2x2 highways will be done soon, in not distant future you'll have a 2x2 highway connection wth Russia on St.Petersburg highway!
I don't think 2x2 all the way to Russia is really necessary, at least with current AADT. What is more problematic, though, is the road alignment between Jõhvi and the border: lots of tight curves and many lorries.
Fortunately, a new route for a 2x2 highway between Jõhvi and Narva is being planned at the moment but there are no certain plans for construction in the coming years.

IMO, we should invest more(than we do now) in small-scale projects, for example creating separated paths for pedestrians and cyclists in villages, making intersections more safe, paving gravel roads, improving surface quality on smaller roads etc.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
IMO, we should invest more(than we do now) in small-scale projects, for example creating separated paths for pedestrians and cyclists in villages, making intersections more safe, paving gravel roads, improving surface quality on smaller roads etc.
Yep. Traffic volumes in Estonia are very low, only a few roads qualify for a 4-lane expansion (Tallinn bypass comes to mind). Maybe some 2-lane or 2+1 bypasses around towns. I would also upgrade the Pärnu bypass to 4 lanes. A new alignment there seems tricky.

If most roads have good surface quality, it may be an idea to collectively build the Via Baltica motorway together with Lithuania and Latvia. On the other hand, traffic volumes are still very low... The LV/EST and LT/LV borders on the Via Baltica are the busiest in the region, but only carry 3,500 vehicles per day.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #227
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It's even less than that. AADT on Via Baltica before the Latvian border is only around 2200. It's a III class road with good pavement quality. The condition of Via Baltica in Estonia is more of a phsychological problem: people feel a bit insecure about the fact that the only road connetcion to Western Europe is a 2-lane highway. That's also the main reason why it should be built if money is available. I imagine a lot of tourists would travel between Baltic countries more if there was a motorway connection to link them.

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; May 13th, 2010 at 07:16 PM.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
IMO, we should invest more(than we do now) in small-scale projects, for example creating separated paths for pedestrians and cyclists in villages, making intersections more safe, paving gravel roads, improving surface quality on smaller roads etc.
If I'm not mistaken, than more than half of all the roads in Estonia are gravel, I remember, I had a excursion three years ago to Saaremaa, I was in a bus and practically the only road on the island that wasn't gravel was to Kuressaare.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #229
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I don't think it really matters if a local road is a gravel road, as long as frequently-trafficked roads are paved (over 200 vehicles per day and residential streets).

Over 80% of Latvia's road mileage is gravel or unpaved, although I believe the majority of that are unimportant rural and village roads. I guess it's the same or better in Estonia.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 09:22 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Over 80% of Latvia's road mileage is gravel or unpaved, although I believe the majority of that are unimportant rural and village roads.
Those are V-roads you're talking about, which indeed are unimportant village/forest roads. All A-roads are paved and only 20% of P-roads are gravel.

About Estonia, I was refering to their regional roads, that most of them aren't paved, for example, Pärnu-Lihula and other roads from Saaremaa in direction to Tallinn, but, they are very well maintained though.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #231
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40% of Estonia's national road network is unpaved. This does not, however, include city streets and local and private roads. I can't find any data about them but most local roads are gravel.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:26 PM   #232
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I found a very recent video of the E20 Kukruse-Jõhvi highway construction.
You can also watch previous construction updates by the same user.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 12:29 PM   #233
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vatse your borders of Estonia are very strange
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Old May 14th, 2010, 04:36 PM   #234
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Since the last border treaty between Estonia and Russia was signed in 1920, many maps include two eastern borders - the official ones as well as the new "control line" (the de facto border). I reckon he just chose a random one and painted over it.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 05:06 PM   #235
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wait. can't catch up with one thing. sorry for my stupid question, but I read most of this thread, and still doubt with this:

is there any 'standard' motorway profiled road in Estonia today(1+2 && 2+1, plus additional 1&1 road for helping during possible motorway blockades)? That would be like this one from a photo:


I'm getting impression that there aren't many roads in Estonia that are even wider than 1+1 (standard one lane to each direction). Is that true? Even these new ones in construction, are these only 2+2 (so called 'fast highways', without de-leveled crossings with bridges, and possibly without fences)?

thanks.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 07:38 PM   #236
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^ As if you didn't know both Estonia and Latvia don't have motorways even though there is one general standard of it, still no road, considering that there are quite some very good 2x2 highways, can manage to get this status here. But I believe in five years there will appear at least one motorway in Estonia!
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Old May 14th, 2010, 10:53 PM   #237
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thanks for clarification , man. Still tough for me to understand why there aren't motorways over there, if it's a legacy from SSSR, it's been 20 years now since indpendence and socalled prosperity, and 6+ years full EU membership. Or traffic in Estonia and Latvia is that much low and internationaly unimportant so there's simply no need?
But still, how the hell EU tolerated that lack of basic infrastructure, i guess it's important having full motorways for settling businesses and industry and making flow of goods and services eu standardly common. What about eu funds, are there any news about subsides from Brussels for this kind of infrastructure in between these two countries?
I just can't, can't, and can't believe to upper post that 40% of estonian roads are unpaved! What the hell with that, in that case, even Albania has better network!
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Old May 14th, 2010, 10:57 PM   #238
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Traffic volumes are very low in Estonia. For example the Tallinn - Rakvere 2x2 expressway carries between 6.000 and 14.000 vehicles per day. At such volumes, you can allow stuff like U-turns.

They did a feasibility study for a Tallinn - Tartu motorway in 1999. They forecasted the 2020 volumes were only between 7.000 and 10.000 AADT for the rural sections. Although car ownership and usage in Estonia is increasing, this is at least partially offset by the fact that Estonia has a declining population.
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Old May 15th, 2010, 04:32 AM   #239
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Is there any map with traffic volumes for Estonia? I think that would answer many questions. Motorways are, of course, cool but like Chris said it's all about the traffic volumes.

The two existing motorways in Lithuania are motorways only because it was a legacy from the USSR days (why they were built back in the USSR days, is a mystique... there was no any economical or any other logical reason for that back then) which was kept simply because it already was there and all that was necessary was to keep it up to the standard which was inherited.

Even if you build a new road identical to the Lithuanian A2 it would not qualify to be a motorway according to the very same standards that are in place in Lithuania today (similar situation to the old German autobahns which are not even close to the contemporary motorway standards present on new autobahns). Another reason the 'motorway' status is not stripped from the Lithuaian motorwaysis because of their ridiculously low traffic volumes which are about 5000 cars a day for most of the time i.e. about as much as in a typical suburban backstreet in London .

So I guess it's more of a relict of 'prestige' which is good for some rankings and surveys (such as 'motorway per capita' where Lithuania stands somewhere just below Germany). There were a few motorway-like 2+2 roads built ever since but noone even thought of giving them a motorway (or even an expressway) status despite some of them clearly being of higher standard than the existing motorways. So if not the A1 and A2 inherited from the USSR Lithuanians could only dream of motorways. Therefore it's hardly surprising that noone is rushing to assign 'motorway' label to new roads in Estonia and Latvia. It is the same reason why we will never have new motorway-labaled roads in Lithuania simply because... there's no need for it. Roads are all about adequacy and to achieve that there is no need for motorways.
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Old May 15th, 2010, 10:36 AM   #240
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Quote:
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vatse your borders of Estonia are very strange
I just searched for some map with roads
As the new border treaty with Russia isn't ratified yet by Russia it's still common to show both old and new eastern borders on Estonian maps. As you can see there is also old Latvian eastern border showed on this map
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