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Old September 12th, 2010, 08:14 PM   #381
ChrisZwolle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xkala1x View Post
Rebuilding Tartu-Elva project is frozen for next 10-20 years.Consultant/expert company said that there not enough traffic....
6.700 - 8.400 vehicles per day. That's indeed a bit low for a full-blown motorway... though 2x2 at-grade wouldn't be the worst idea. Still, I think strategically important roads could be motorways, even at low traffic volumes. Route 3 is not that important, but route 1,2 and 4 are.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #382
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A bit updated map (based upon the road construction funding plan for 2010-2013):
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Old September 12th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #383
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A few more drive-by shots from Loo-Maardu section, taken today.

The metal structure near Iru railway overpass from my previous report is indeed used for carrying heating pipes, so will it stay there permanently to carry the pipes over the underpass? I think yes.


Digging the underpass.


Most of the eastbound lane between Loo and Maardu temporary roundabouts has already a thick layer of asphalt. Project documentation shows that the eastbound lane should be ready in November (of course junctions take longer to build).


Parts of a new light traffic bridge which will be built over the stream flowing out of Lake Maardu.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 01:49 AM   #384
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Motorways in Estonia is a topic that seems to shortly re-emerge here every once in a while. There isn't much to say about them, other that there simply aren't any and I haven't heard Road Administration use that term not even once.

But I'd leave that aside for a moment and fantasize a bit. What do you think, what would most likely be the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status?

And why have motorways been an avoided option, at all; what are the reasons contributing to that?

I would love to hear your opinions on this topic.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 03:24 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grisent View Post
Motorways in Estonia is a topic that seems to shortly re-emerge here every once in a while. There isn't much to say about them, other that there simply aren't any and I haven't heard Road Administration use that term not even once.

But I'd leave that aside for a moment and fantasize a bit. What do you think, what would most likely be the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status?

And why have motorways been an avoided option, at all; what are the reasons contributing to that?

I would love to hear your opinions on this topic.
I think the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status must be E20 from Tallinn.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 02:15 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grisent View Post
Motorways in Estonia is a topic that seems to shortly re-emerge here every once in a while. There isn't much to say about them, other that there simply aren't any and I haven't heard Road Administration use that term not even once.

But I'd leave that aside for a moment and fantasize a bit. What do you think, what would most likely be the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status?

And why have motorways been an avoided option, at all; what are the reasons contributing to that?

I would love to hear your opinions on this topic.
The road administration hasn't said anything about it BUT if you look at the traffic sign schemes of the future Kose-Mäo road, motorway signs are shown: http://freewheel.autodesk.com/dwf_S....0_100R0800.dwf
http://freewheel.autodesk.com/dwf_S....0_200R0800.dwf

I think this has to be misunderstanding because the road is clearly designed as a I class highway and not a motorway.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 02:42 PM   #387
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The reconstructed and newly built sections of Tallinn-Tartu/E263 should be the most probable option.

E20 east of Tallinn (currently 60 km of 2+2, until Viitna, in a few years should be 80 km of 2+2, until Haljala) needs serious improvements to get motorway status - it has quite a lot of U-turns and small village roads joining the highway every now and then, which would mean building several grade-separated junctions and lots of collector roads. With current traffic density, there's no serious need for such improvements. Currently a rather expensive renovation of a km 20 section between Liiapeksi and Loobu is undergoing, but as far as I know, it's simple renovation - no new junctions will be built.

E263 has better chances because it will be a newly built 2+2 expressway and will be built with a "motorway layout" (I remember hearing the term somewhere) - only grade-separated junctions, no U-turns, lots of collector roads=no random roads joining the main highway. But building the road according to all the technical standards of motorways (somewhat wider, thicker pavement?, continuously lit?, don't know...) would probably be too expensive and not justified, given the traffic volumes.
Currently only the 7 km Vaida-Aruvalla (renovated a few years ago) section has a "motorway layout", but if a similar road would be built until Mäo, this section would in my opinion have the best chances of becoming a motorway.

E67 from Tallinn to Ääsmäe has the same problems as E20 (a legacy of the times it was built): it was built as a simple 2+2 expressway, and given the traffic volumes, converting it to a road corresponding to all the motorway standards wouldn't be justified as there are other roads which are in a more serious need for investments.

Last edited by maanus_j; September 14th, 2010 at 02:47 PM. Reason: corrected typo
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Old September 14th, 2010, 03:42 PM   #388
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some quite poor, still many good roads in Estonia!

keep up with good work ppl!!
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Old September 14th, 2010, 03:45 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasper View Post
A bit updated map (based upon the road construction funding plan for 2010-2013):
this is map of Estonia that includes some territory that is not in today's Estonia

deal with it, Estonians, this borders today are your final borders
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Old September 14th, 2010, 04:02 PM   #390
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this is not the thread for such discussion. But just a note -until final border treaty is signed and ratified by both Estonia and Russia then we can't really talk about the final border and territory.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 07:45 PM   #391
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this is not the thread for such discussion. But just a note -until final border treaty is signed and ratified by both Estonia and Russia then we can't really talk about the final border and territory.
sure this is not thread for such provocation, putting here wrong map

theredays you have ur borders and, besides, there are 95% Russians in area that were separated from Estonia.

Croatia once had whole Bosnia in her hands, sure it was like 1000 years ago, but today noone will put some Croatia and Bosnia map without border.

this is not topic for politics, but even more, it doesn't give u right to put it and think noone will notice.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 08:14 PM   #392
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but let's just forget this.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 10:08 PM   #393
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Is there a tunnel proposed to make the link between Estonian mainland and Saaremaa? Would it be useful or just wasted money?

Does Saaremaa mean The Land of the Island?
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Old September 14th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #394
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There are proposals for both a bridge and tunnel, although a bridge is more likely because it's more cost-efficient. I've read about this project in a study, it was supposedly cheaper to build a 7 kilometer bridge than maintaining the subsidized ferries.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 01:27 AM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maanus_j View Post
The reconstructed and newly built sections of Tallinn-Tartu/E263 should be the most probable option.

...
E263 Kose-Mäo would be the most logical choice for a motorway in my opinion, too. Having a totally new alignment and passing only through thinly-inhabited areas - it should be no problem at all to just build a few grade-separated junctions and avoid direct access from village roads.

Local traffic and public transport can continue using the old road, which means new 2x2 will be left just for long-distance traffic. And the new road was supposed to get several ecoducts - which would allow all the roadside to be fenced to keep animals away.

All in all, E263 Kose-Mäo would be an ideal choice for a motorway; and it is quite disappointing that it will be built strictly just to 1st-class highway requirements. The cross-section they have chosen will not be upgradeable to motorway standard.

By the way, yes - engineering standards require a motorway to be continuously lit. However, lighting could easily be added later, but widening the median by 8,5 metres is a work that nobody ever is going to undertake. :/


But E20 -- I think it is not too bad, actually. Of course, Jõelähtme is a pretty substandard at-grade junction, with 2 busy U-turns and a narrow westbound bridge at a very inconvenient place. Moreover, in the further part of the road there are several U-turns; junction with T85 Liiapeksi-Loksa specifically ought to be rebuilt and grade-separated.

But the remaining part inbetween (more specifically, between Jägala and Kupu) could very well serve as a motorway. Road profile should be more or less sufficient, it is partly fenced, and Jägala, Kiiu, Kuusalu, Kupu are all very respectable junctions. (I would only eliminate the eastbound petrol station in Kuusalu, which is too close to the road.) I am sure many of the local access roads could be eliminated as well.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 03:41 AM   #396
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Maximum allowed speed on a motorway in Estonia is 120km/h. The only road that ever did get a 120km/h speed limit, was E20. Only once, only on a short stretch, more than 10 years ago.

Quote:
I think this has to be misunderstanding because the road is clearly designed as a I class highway and not a motorway.
Ramboll likes motorway signs. You can see ones on their Romeda-Haljala schemes as well.

Quote:
Of course, Jõelähtme is a pretty substandard at-grade junction, with 2 busy U-turns and a narrow westbound bridge at a very inconvenient place.
Those at-grade junctions are something, that is totally unneeded. They can be gotten rid off easily.
Let's fantasize a bit... again.
~6km of new collector roads should be build (1.8km were planed to be built quite soon). About 3.5km of collector roads should be repaved.
An option: to build a combined bridge for both local traffic and pedestrians.
As a result: 3 U-turns, 1 at-grade intersection, 1 pedestrian crossing and 14 local road turns will be removed.
Something like this:

Then the "to Tallinn carriageway" has to be rebuild to match the 1 class standards.

Quote:
junction with T85 Liiapeksi-Loksa specifically ought to be rebuilt and grade-separated.
They have started building one in the 80s. But the project is on hold since then.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 09:55 AM   #397
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Very good work! That is a nice solution. Indeed, a junction at Jõelähtme is not necessary. Having too many junctions close together would not conform to motorway standards, either.

Last edited by Grisent; September 15th, 2010 at 09:55 AM. Reason: removed unnecessary long quote
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Old September 15th, 2010, 04:49 PM   #398
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I agree. it should probably be just a bridge over the highway for local connecting traffic
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Old September 15th, 2010, 06:22 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasper View Post
Maximum allowed speed on a motorway in Estonia is 120km/h. The only road that ever did get a 120km/h speed limit, was E20. Only once, only on a short stretch, more than 10 years ago.
And now it is mostly 90, where all drive 100-110 and some parts are 110 where the average speed is 120
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Old September 15th, 2010, 10:32 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grisent View Post
...
All in all, E263 Kose-Mäo would be an ideal choice for a motorway; and it is quite disappointing that it will be built strictly just to 1st-class highway requirements. The cross-section they have chosen will not be upgradeable to motorway standard.

By the way, yes - engineering standards require a motorway to be continuously lit. However, lighting could easily be added later, but widening the median by 8,5 metres is a work that nobody ever is going to undertake. :/
...
Actually I don't think that narrow median would be an insurmountable problem - project documentation for the Kose-Mäo section shows that the road will have a continuous crash barrier in the median (apart for a few crossing areas for wildlife) and will also be fenced. Instead the motorway standards should/could be changed to include a road with narrow median and crash barriers - and although Estonian bureaucrats are known for excessive and sometimes plain stupid enthusiasm in fulfilling all kinds of regulations, I still hope that common sense has not entirely left our road officials - narrow median with crash barriers isn't really worse than a wide median. I think it's actually the better option: less land under highways, less resources used.
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