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Old September 21st, 2011, 12:16 AM   #701
ChrisZwolle
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Quote:
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Are you ready to heard the bad news? ...although some parts of new route will be built sooner,main construction could proceed from 2040 onward....
Good to see they're planning 10 consecutive government terms ahead

Seriously, it's completely unknown in democracies what future government will spend on which projects. Some of it is planned in agreements, but man, not 30 years ahead in time...
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Old September 21st, 2011, 05:16 PM   #702
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That's not all too terrible. I could live half the road being the way it is now, but Tallinn's half needs work badly. When could expansion of the current 2+2 stretch be expected?
Aruvalla-Kose section is already U/C. Kose-Mäo section probably won't be built before 2020.

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Good to see they're planning 10 consecutive government terms ahead

Seriously, it's completely unknown in democracies what future government will spend on which projects. Some of it is planned in agreements, but man, not 30 years ahead in time...
The purpose of this plan is to ensure that within the 650m wide corridor no new houses would be built. It's only the route that's being planned, not the highway project itself. The 2040 estimation is most probably based on the projected AADT...which I doubt will ever be high enough to require a 2x2 highway.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 10:24 PM   #703
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Maybe the traffic density isn't high enough,but improving road safety would certainly be decisive,when considering upgrading Tallinn-Tartu highway to 2+2 highway. Atleast some multilevel junctions,shortcuts and sections of 2+2 road are needed,even when the full upgrading is considered useless.

Btw,wasting hundreds of millions of euros is justified,as long as it saves lives (saved human life = priceless).
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Old September 21st, 2011, 10:32 PM   #704
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Btw,wasting hundreds of millions of euros is justified,as long as it saves lives (saved human life = priceless).
There are actually some morbid calculations about what a human life is worth in terms of traffic safety. I don't know the exact figure, but I believe it was € 2.5 - 2.8 million.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 10:45 PM   #705
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Quote:
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Btw,wasting hundreds of millions of euros is justified,as long as it saves lives (saved human life = priceless).
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There are actually some morbid calculations about what a human life is worth in terms of traffic safety. I don't know the exact figure, but I believe it was € 2.5 - 2.8 million.
It's actually neither very difficult nor immoral to place an approximate price on what human life is worth. Oversimplifying, the question to ask is how many lives could be saved by spending the money on something else, for example, cancer research or better sanitation. If the new road (or whatever else is being evaluated) would save more lives per unit of money spent than the alternatives, then it's a morally good way to spend the money. If the road would save fewer lives per unit of money spent than an alternative, then the road cannot be justified on a moral basis (though it may be justifiable on some other basis). In this way, it's not so difficult to put an approximate price on the value of human life.

Looked at another way, we have limited resources so we can't do all the possible things that might save lives. We can only choose among the options and save as many lives as possible by making the most effective choices.
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Old September 22nd, 2011, 01:03 AM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There are actually some morbid calculations about what a human life is worth in terms of traffic safety. I don't know the exact figure, but I believe it was € 2.5 - 2.8 million.
It may be that figure in Holland, and maybe it is even higher in Scandinavia, but it sure as hell isn't so in Estonia. Sorry to say that, but it is true.
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Old September 22nd, 2011, 01:39 PM   #707
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Looked at another way, we have limited resources so we can't do all the possible things that might save lives. We can only choose among the options and save as many lives as possible by making the most effective choices.
What you didn't address is that you can't use the national road budget money in health care, for example, and vice-versa. In Estonia, the national health insurance budget is financially independent of the rest of the state budget.

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It may be that figure in Holland, and maybe it is even higher in Scandinavia, but it sure as hell isn't so in Estonia. Sorry to say that, but it is true.
By 2006 figures a human life is worth € 740,000 in Estonia, the "cost" for a disabled person is € 850,000.
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Old September 22nd, 2011, 02:11 PM   #708
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What you didn't address is that you can't use the national road budget money in health care, for example, and vice-versa. In Estonia, the national health insurance budget is financially independent of the rest of the state budget.
How much money to allocate to the road budget and how much to the health care budget is a political question that may be better informed by the risk/risk analysis introduced above.
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Old September 22nd, 2011, 05:58 PM   #709
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There is a separate health care tax in Estonia so no, it is not a political decision, unless you change the taxes.
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Old September 22nd, 2011, 07:11 PM   #710
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... unless you change the taxes.
That's a political decision. Anyway, we're straying away from roads.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 09:36 AM   #711
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Yesterday the contract for the Jõhvi traffic junction was made. The project includes 2 new 246m viaducts at the spot of the old viaduct and 2 turbo-roundabouts at both ends (BTW, this is the first time I've seen the word "turboringristmik" in an Estonian press release ) The cost is € 10.3 million and the deadline is autumn 2013. The project is 100% EU funded.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 10:27 AM   #712
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"turboringristmik"
haha, sounds bad-ass
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Old October 9th, 2011, 02:58 PM   #713
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The deadline for the T1/E20 Loo-Maardu section has been postponed to June 2012.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:41 AM   #714
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Renovations of T11340 Tallinn-Saku road were finished this summer. (In July, I believe — if the works were completed on time.)

I think there haven't been any photos yet, so I recently took a couple of shots. Lighting was remarkably bad (low sun, strong counterlight) but road features should be still recognizable.

AADT 2010: ~5700.





1. Road number as it is typically signposted just after town limits.



2. That's correct, the road to the right is prohibited for all traffic (and yet it has a right turn lane, an ADS and at least 3 traffic signs dedicated to it). Never seen that before. Although— I must say it kinda makes sense to build the intersection and signpost it, just in case the road may be opened up sometime in the future.



3. A few kilometres in, the road splits into two carriageways and gains a median. This stretch is illuminated as well. There are no longer any left turns here — instead, there's a U-turn loop at both ends.



4. Separated carriageways begin here.



5. That's the first U-turn loop.



6. The road is basically 2x1, but with right turn and merge lanes.



7. Accompanying footpaths / light traffic roads are becoming more and more commonplace, nice.



8.



9. And more road number signposting.



10. The other U-turn loop.



11. Approaching T11 (E265) Tallinn bypass. For comparison, here's the previous ADS that on the exact same spot before:

image hosted on flickr

DSC_9707 by Grisent, on Flickr



12. Tammemäe junction feels more spacious and opened up than before.



13. T11 overpass and second half of the junction coming up.



14.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 11:34 AM   #715
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Wow!, there really is an 80 km/h speed limit. I had a hard time believing it when my friend told me about it. Thanks for the photos, by the way, it looks like a nice road.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #716
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Today, the Estonian Road Administration held a small press conference about works done in 2011 while giving a brief overview of what's to come in 2012.

2011:
Budget: € 250 million
Average age of pavement for:
Main highways: 13 years
Supporting highways: 25 years
Other state roads: 21 years.
(While the goal is 15 years for the last 2)
The reason why main highways are in a vastly better condition is because we can use EU money for their reconstruction while other roads have to be reconstructed/rebuilt using only the money from the state budget.
Building and repairing surfaced roads: 273km
Paving gravel roads: 222km
Surfacing roads: 994km
Repairing gravel roads: 332km
Building light-traffic roads and sidewalks: 71km

2012:
Budget: € 265 million
Biggest projects starting or continuing in 2012:
Väo interchange ( T1/E20 - T11/E265): http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidpl...0320154451.pdf
Topi interchange (T4/E67): http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidpl...skorraldus.pdf
Luige interchange (T11/E265 - T15)
Pärnu bypass
Tartu Western bypass (including Variku viaduct and Postimaja intersection):
Viitna bypass
Jõhvi interchange: http://www.mnt.ee/public/skeem2.pdf

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; October 25th, 2011 at 10:27 PM.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 08:34 PM   #717
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Interesting figures. What's the difference between paving gravel roads and surfacing roads?
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Old October 25th, 2011, 10:32 PM   #718
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Surfacing (maybe there's a better term) means that you cover a paved road with a thin layer of bitumen and granite rubble. It's a cheap method for repairing a pavement. The downside is that it makes the road less smooth and the ride a lot noisier. It also doesn't last very long.
It looks something like this, although usually the whole road is covered:


A similar method is mostly used to repave gravel roads which means that the road bed remains untouched. A huge majority of road beds in Estonia are from the Soviet era and often poorly planned and built. For example, when the Vaida-Aruvalla section of T2/E263 was reconstructed, they found out that the old road bed had been built over a metre thick layer of bog peat....no wonder that roads like that don't last. The planned Kose-Mäo section of T2 also runs through a bog so in some places 1,5 metres of bog peat have to be removed before they can build the road bed.

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; October 25th, 2011 at 10:42 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #719
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nice
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Old October 28th, 2011, 01:05 PM   #720
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A few photos of the ongoing Ülemiste junction construction in Tallinn:

Digging the tunnel under the railway (the temporary railway line is on the right):




Entrance for the U/C pedestrian tunnel (I wonder how long it will take before graffiti appears here).


Photos are from www.postimees.ee

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; October 28th, 2011 at 01:10 PM.
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