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Old September 20th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #161
gincan
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I don't think so many large airports are clustered in such a small area anywhere in Western Europe. Guangzhou and Hong Kong are only 130km or so apart while there is also Shenzhen smacked in between. However, military restrictions play a major part in air traffic congestion all over China. Some work has been done to open up new corridors but delays are still common and fairly rampant especially in the major hubs of Beijing (Air China base), Shanghai (China Eastern base), and Guangzhou (China Southern base).
The military would be the answer then as the airspace is far from being congested. The three airports "only" handled ca 900K planes in 2011, this is less than Atlanta airport alone.

In the Los Angeles area for example which is of similar size, there are LAX, Glendale, Ontario, John Wayne, Palm Springs and Long Beach and about 30 more airports for private airplanes and jets plus 5 military airports. Between them you easily exceed 10 million airplanes moving around in that airspace every year.

The airspace over Holland and western Germay, also is a very congested airspace. There are for sure no large airports with the exception of Amsterdam but the combination of about a dozen small and mid-sized airports moving well in excess of a million airplanes and the traffic of several million more airplanes moving through that airspace makes is extremely congested.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 06:38 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The military would be the answer then as the airspace is far from being congested. The three airports "only" handled ca 900K planes in 2011, this is less than Atlanta airport alone.

In the Los Angeles area for example which is of similar size, there are LAX, Glendale, Ontario, John Wayne, Palm Springs and Long Beach and about 30 more airports for private airplanes and jets plus 5 military airports. Between them you easily exceed 10 million airplanes moving around in that airspace every year.

The airspace over Holland and western Germay, also is a very congested airspace. There are for sure no large airports with the exception of Amsterdam but the combination of about a dozen small and mid-sized airports moving well in excess of a million airplanes and the traffic of several million more airplanes moving through that airspace makes is extremely congested.
Keep in mind Guangzhou, Shenzhen, and Hong Kong airports only have 2 runways each, so capacity is definitely limited. You can cram planes into the skies but the runway capacity is severely limited.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 04:54 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Both. The delta is severely congested and it's hard to add capacity to existing airports.
Well, my original post was a response to this post as I believe there are neither capacity issues at the airports nor in the sky.

If we take London Heathrow as an example, that airport move 480K planes a year with only two runway. If we tripple this as in the case of the delta then you get over 1400K planes a year. Since the three airports currently move ca 900K planes a year, then there is still atlest 500K planes capacity left. Or in other words, an entire Beijing Capital International Airport worth of extra capacity.

Then there are atlest plans to expand Guangzhou to four runway which would add another 500K planes a year to the current 1400K.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 06:53 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Well, my original post was a response to this post as I believe there are neither capacity issues at the airports nor in the sky.

If we take London Heathrow as an example, that airport move 480K planes a year with only two runway. If we tripple this as in the case of the delta then you get over 1400K planes a year. Since the three airports currently move ca 900K planes a year, then there is still atlest 500K planes capacity left. Or in other words, an entire Beijing Capital International Airport worth of extra capacity.

Then there are atlest plans to expand Guangzhou to four runway which would add another 500K planes a year to the current 1400K.
I don't think much can be done until the military releases more airspace. Given so many large airports so close to each other, the approach paths need to be realigned to maximize efficiency among all the airports.


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Old September 21st, 2012, 07:11 PM   #165
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Where does the china southern a380 fly to?
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Old September 21st, 2012, 08:56 PM   #166
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shree711: as far as I recall, CZ's A380s are used primarily on domestic and Hong Kong flights. Most probably PEK-HKG and PEK-CAN. I'd better check with www.airlineroute.net and search China Southern for more information: it's a reliable source for flight information and updates.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:49 AM   #167
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Where does the china southern a380 fly to?
The A380 is presently deployed on domestic sectors and will soon be deployed on the CDG, LAX and SYD routes...

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Old September 22nd, 2012, 03:05 PM   #168
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There will be a "Canton route" between London and Sydney with a stop-over in Guangzhou.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 07:05 AM   #169
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Vectrotalenzis: so, if CZ operates its A380 on the "Kangaroo" Route between London-Heathrow and Sydney via Guangzhou, that would mean fierce competition from Cathay Pacific which also does a Kangaroo Route system (although it means you'll need to transfer between flights in HKG) that could significantly drive prices down between the UK and Australia via China. There could be a potential for a LHR-CAN-SYD route, but it seems like it needs to fight against other airlines who do the same thing at lower costs.

And a disclaimer: Emirates and Qantas have already made a deal that would route its Australia-UK services via Dubai instead of Singapore and Hong Kong, as it is today. It will start next year, with a possibility that EK and QF will codeshare on both Dubai-UK and Dubai-Australia sectors.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 07:39 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
Vectrotalenzis: so, if CZ operates its A380 on the "Kangaroo" Route between London-Heathrow and Sydney via Guangzhou, that would mean fierce competition from Cathay Pacific which also does a Kangaroo Route system (although it means you'll need to transfer between flights in HKG) that could significantly drive prices down between the UK and Australia via China. There could be a potential for a LHR-CAN-SYD route, but it seems like it needs to fight against other airlines who do the same thing at lower costs.

And a disclaimer: Emirates and Qantas have already made a deal that would route its Australia-UK services via Dubai instead of Singapore and Hong Kong, as it is today. It will start next year, with a possibility that EK and QF will codeshare on both Dubai-UK and Dubai-Australia sectors.
I doubt it. CX's London route is catered for business travellers, with multiple frequencies per day. CZ's schedule is very modest, and will not be able to snatch the premium traffic. They will offer more competition at the Y level, but then, HK gets a lot of competition already on the London route, with BA and Virgin in the running as well. Prices are actually quite competitive already considering the long distance of this flight.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 08:57 AM   #171
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hkskyline: that's true. Don't forget NZ too: it does LHR-HKG as well on its way to and from Auckland. I wonder though if QF still does LHR-HKG too on its way to MEL and SYD (and it uses 744s instead of 380). With that many frequencies, it seems like CX and BA are fighting for passengers on the premium UK-Australia market, and yet it's just a short, two- to three-hour train ride between CAN and HKG (or a 50-minute flight for that matter).
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 09:29 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
hkskyline: that's true. Don't forget NZ too: it does LHR-HKG as well on its way to and from Auckland. I wonder though if QF still does LHR-HKG too on its way to MEL and SYD (and it uses 744s instead of 380). With that many frequencies, it seems like CX and BA are fighting for passengers on the premium UK-Australia market, and yet it's just a short, two- to three-hour train ride between CAN and HKG (or a 50-minute flight for that matter).
Ah yes ... NZ downsized from a 747 though. QF no longer flies HKG-LHR as part of an earlier reorganization of their European flights.

Hong Kong has far stronger business connections to the UK due to the colonial legacy. There's also a lot of student traffic between the two to sustain so many daily frequencies. This is something Guangzhou doesn't have so they need to compete based on price.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 09:40 AM   #173
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hkskyline: you got that right. I wonder though how that would impact other airlines doing the London-Australia route. There's so much competition, it's like, you'd really need to decide on which airline you fly based on service, flight time, and price. And CZ doing an A380 for LHR-SYD via CAN? It seems like it will face stiff competition from other airlines also using the A380 on that service, particularly:

- Emirates (via DXB)
- Malaysia Airlines (via KUL)
- Singapore Airlines (via SIN)
- Qantas (via SIN)
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 01:29 PM   #174
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Here some info on CZ's route:

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...202-1qvai.html
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 07:43 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VECTROTALENZIS
Ah yes, interesting indeed. I forgot though Etihad's services via Abu Dhabi. But, EY currently does not operate any A380 routes just yet.

I think that operating very long flights can be taxing for both passengers and crew because of length of time sitting and the number of hours spent in the plane versus the stop over involved. But, with the large demand, I think airlines are pushed to provide better services to cater to passengers' needs and desires, like using the A380 on such routes. I think, though, that axing SYD-SIN-FRA would be a bad idea, especially if all long-haul flights will be relayed instead via DXB since it would mean loss of potential passengers... But, of course, DXB is a massive hub of its own, so probably not a lot of passengers will run away.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 02:27 AM   #176
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CZs presence is already causing a significant decrease in prices. The problem is, however, that they have not been getting as much out of this route as they thought they would. One reason is the current state of in-flight products and services (Hkskyline also talked about the "premium" aspects of other airlines). The other is that they are relatively new to this.

Keep in mind, EK and QF have formed a partnership that will change the dynamics of Europe-Australia via Dubai (dubbed the "falcon route"). While BA is still maintaining its LHR-SIN-SYD route, QF is only operating its LHR routes via DXB, thereby ending its Kangaroo route relationship with BA. QF is also dropping its Frankfurt route (I wouldn't be surprised, however, if this route, or other German routes operated by QF, will come back soon because Emirates is really wanting to operate more flights to Germany; Competitor EY is able to get around the UAE-Germany problem because it partially owns Air Berlin).
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Old September 24th, 2012, 02:43 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine
CZs presence is already causing a significant decrease in prices. The problem is, however, that they have not been getting as much out of this route as they thought they would. One reason is the current state of in-flight products and services (Hkskyline also talked about the "premium" aspects of other airlines). The other is that they are relatively new to this.

Keep in mind, EK and QF have formed a partnership that will change the dynamics of Europe-Australia via Dubai (dubbed the "falcon route"). While BA is still maintaining its LHR-SIN-SYD route, QF is only operating its LHR routes via DXB, thereby ending its Kangaroo route relationship with BA. QF is also dropping its Frankfurt route (I wouldn't be surprised, however, if this route, or other German routes operated by QF, will come back soon because Emirates is really wanting to operate more flights to Germany; Competitor EY is able to get around the UAE-Germany problem because it partially owns Air Berlin).
That's exactly my thought too. EK and EY are already trying its best to compete against LH on the UAE-Germany market, with EK already leading in the flights and seat allocation per day category. But I think that QF canceling its Germany service could be a temporary measure to gauge whether the Falcon Route (via DXB) would work to start with versus the current Kangaroo Route. if the Falcon Route does not work for the Australia-Germany flight, then I think that QF could reinstate the direct SYD-FRA routing, but probably via DXB or SIN.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #178
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Old October 8th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Really nice pics of the CZ A380. Makes me long for SQ operating its A380 to SFO starting this November!
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Old October 9th, 2012, 08:55 AM   #180
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Is this CZs latest A380...? The engine cowling's appear to be spotless...
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