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Old November 9th, 2010, 12:55 PM   #301
_doc_
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Originally Posted by El Mariachi View Post
You are right about alot of things here, but like Spicy, I think you aren't giving Europeans enough credit. Not every sports fan or potential sports fan there is hardcore about these things. The NBA can hook the casual fan with the hype, the show, and the starpower. It might not have as much meaning as historic teams, but I think there would always be an audience. It is quite possible to support two teams btw. Here in the U.S., most people support a college team along with a pro team. College sports are like your soccer or basketball where they can't be moved and have historical ties to the community. Granted, many pro teams in the U.S. have those same historical ties and community support (especially NFL teams).
Yes there is always going to be an audience to an NBA Europe division...but from what I know this is not enough given the U.S. sporting finance system...Other than that I don't know much about college sports in the U.S. and so If you say that there is such a strong sentimental bond between the community and the team I guess you are right...
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Old November 9th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by SpicyMcHaggis View Post
90% of the NBA teams mean absolutely nothing to average European fan. Place Real Madrid - PAO and the Madrid NBA - Dallas Mavericks at the same time and let me know how many people showed up for the Mavs game.
In a market (such as London) where there's no real basketball tradition, the NBA game would almost certainly draw more.

Fans would certainly go in numbers in London to the odd game. I don't think there's anywhere enough support to pull the 15,000 - 20,000 a game for a full NBA season though.

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There's only one case in all sports that i can remember and that was when AFC Wimbledon went bust and new owner relocated them to Milton Keynes. Do i even have to mention that probably youth teams in Milton Keynes have bigger attendance than the MK Dons (who play in what is already respectable and pro league).
.
You can mention it all you want, but you'd be wrong.

MK's support is pretty decent, to the surprise of many - around 10,500 for the last couple of years in the third tier, comfortable above average for that level.

Milton Keynes only had an amateur club way down the league pyramid as competition though, so the only switching of allegiences was from fans who grew up supporting a club they'd only seen on tv as a child.

The has been "franchising" in the English game, but it happened so long ago that people forget. Arsenal and Manchester United both moved away from the heart of their support from one part of their city to another. Arsenal's case was pretty scandalous, with the owner running down the club deliberately to weaken support, then uprooting the club to a completely different part of London where population density was very high. The owner, with the aid of a few friends in high places, also managed to get Arsenal moved from Div 2 to Div 1 at the end of WWI, without any hint of earning their position.

Chelsea were effectively a franchise, being elected into the football league before having ever played a match. Liverpool only existed for a year before being voted in. There used to be only one senior club in Liverpool - Everton - playing at Anfield, until they moved to Goodison after a dispute with the landlord. Anfield's owner then formed Liverpool, who were let into the league, joining Everton, a year later.

I think Bradford and Huddersfield were also franchises effectively, being given league status if they changed codes from rugby league.

Overall though, you point stands. Franchising doesn't happen in established sports. The league system renders in unnecessary.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 05:04 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by SpicyMcHaggis
You just don't get it... NO ONE would stop supporting their team.. our teams are deeply connected with entire community and they are usually multiple sport organization. You think that people in Moscow, Madrid, Barcelona, Athens wouldn't support club like Real, Barca, PAO, CSKA for some new nameless franchise? You have no idea how deluded if you are if that's the case... and no, there's no place for multiple clubs if they aren't already established. It just doesn't work like that in Europe.. new clubs don't simply "open".. you support club you are somehow born into. This isn't US franchised sport. Most of the clubs don't even have owners and are not public. Its completely different sports culture and way of looking at it and you are seriously wrong if you think that "your way" could pass.
First off, who is saying that these fans should stop supporting their teams? And when did I say that they would even put an NBA team in these cities that have strong basketball traditions? This discussion is all hypothetical and I am not arguing that the NBA should have European teams.

You are assuming that all European sports fans are 'ultras' or diehards. I just don't think this is the truth. You aren't giving Europe enough credit here by writing them all off as resistant to change or something new.

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Paris, Milan, Amsterdam? Get real please.. there's absolutely no basketball audience in either of those cities. That would be major debacle.
They doesn't have to be. The NBA's goal is to grow the game there. Much of Europe is already a basketball hotbed. France, Netherlands, U.K., Germany, etc. are all major markets that can still be tapped. Nobody thought there was a soccer market here in the U.S. but the MLS is doing pretty well as a niche.


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90% of the NBA teams mean absolutely nothing to average European fan. Place Real Madrid - PAO and the Madrid NBA - Dallas Mavericks at the same time and let me know how many people showed up for the Mavs game.
I think this is a bit delusional, no offense. The NBA is the top basketball league in the world. This would be like me saying that MLS fans could care less if Barca, Liverpool, AC Milan, or Man City rolling into their towns. Star power brings people to games.


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Europe can support multiple clubs, of course that it can. Big towns have plenty of teams in all possible sports, but those are all established teams from which some are even older than 100 years. We don't know concept of "creating" a new team/franchise. If someone here wants to build a big club he takes over existing one with existing fan base. Other ways simply don't work... trust me on that one
So you are saying that Europe is resistant to change and anything new? Nobody is saying that the NBA would have be greeted with the same enthusiasm as existing clubs. Again, this is an attempt to grow the league and the sport----not to compete with soccer or existing clubs.


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Call us arrogant if you want, but people here don't simply start rooting for club that was suddenly relocated in their town like it happens in USA. There's only one case in all sports that i can remember and that was when AFC Wimbledon went bust and new owner relocated them to Milton Keynes. Do i even have to mention that probably youth teams in Milton Keynes have bigger attendance than the MK Dons (who play in what is already respectable and pro league).

But why would you do that? I'm huge fan of both NBA and Euroleague and they are both just fantastic on its own. They are perfectly functional as they are now and why should they be butchered? What they should do is create some sort of "Supercup" match between the league winners and that's it.
You guys act as if teams are relocated regularly. The bulk of the NBA have been in their cities for decades and have strong connections with the community.

Again, I am not saying that the NBA should go to Europe but I am saying that it could work if they did.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 05:29 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by _doc_ View Post
Yes there is always going to be an audience to an NBA Europe division...but from what I know this is not enough given the U.S. sporting finance system...Other than that I don't know much about college sports in the U.S. and so If you say that there is such a strong sentimental bond between the community and the team I guess you are right...
Well, it could be tough to draw NBA sized crowds intially. I would say that 17-18,000 would be preferable.

College sports in the U.S. are quite a bit like European clubs in regards to support. College basketball and football (American style) are extremely popular in this country. They are arguably more popular than the pro leagues in the country. Many of them play in bigger stadiums than the NFL and outdraw NBA teams. I always bust out the same clips, but this is an example of the atmosphere at a college game.



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