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Old September 15th, 2006, 02:04 PM   #1
Benjuk
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BRAZIL - FIFA World Cup 2014

I looked around briefly and couldn't find a thread for the 2014 World Cup in Brazil*... So I thought I'd post this...

From soccernet.com (15 Sept 06)
"Brazil president Luiz Inacio `Lula' da Silva has defended his country's candidature to host the 2014 World Cup but admits the nation will have to construct a minimum of a dozen new stadiums to meet FIFA's hosting criteria.

'To have the World Cup in 2014 here, we'll have to start thinking about building at least 12 new stadiums',' said Lula.

'According to FIFA regulations, we have no stadium in suitable conditions to organise a World Cup match.'"

So, with a country riddled with debt, starvation and crime - and in which many clubs are unable to pay their (lowly paid) professional footballers, should they really be investing in a dozen new football stadiums?

*Whilst the location of the 2014 Finals hasn't been officially announced yet, it's more or less accepted that the finals will be in South America, and the other nations in the federation have provisionally agreed not to bid against Brazil.
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Old September 15th, 2006, 07:35 PM   #2
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Put simply, Brazil have major problems.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 04:46 AM   #3
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I may have missed it but has Brazil been officially picked for 2014? I know they are the strong favorites but if they don't have yet why starting building or renovating stadiums. Also with the abundance of stadiums in the country I'm sure there would be a few up to the god almighty FIFA's standards.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjuk
From soccernet.com (15 Sept 06)
"Brazil president Luiz Inacio `Lula' da Silva has defended his country's candidature to host the 2014 World Cup but admits the nation will have to construct a minimum of a dozen new stadiums to meet FIFA's hosting criteria.


'To have the World Cup in 2014 here, we'll have to start thinking about building at least 12 new stadiums',' said Lula.

'According to FIFA regulations, we have no stadium in suitable conditions to organise a World Cup match.'"

So, with a country riddled with debt, starvation and crime - and in which many clubs are unable to pay their (lowly paid) professional footballers, should they really be investing in a dozen new football stadiums?
USA has more debt than Brazil. There is hardly starvation in Brazil. A large % of the population is actually fat.

Yes, many clubs are unable to pay their lowly paid professional footballers. But Brazil has about 2000 PROFESSIONAL football clubs. The 20 largest clubs in the country DO PAY their professional footballers and pay them well (most players in the first division earn over $30k per month and drive around in bmws and mercedes)


Whats the PROBLEM of investing in new football stadiums?? Brazil built several of them for the 1950 World Cup, including the largest and most modern stadiums in the world back then. And after the 1950 World Cup, several brazilian clubs built BIG modern private stadiums with their own money.


So next time, shut up instead of spewing your bullshit around!
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:17 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin W
I may have missed it but has Brazil been officially picked for 2014? I know they are the strong favorites but if they don't have yet why starting building or renovating stadiums. Also with the abundance of stadiums in the country I'm sure there would be a few up to the god almighty FIFA's standards.

No, we have not been picked yet and there is still PLENTY of time BEFORE the country is chosen. Its 8 years till 2014. We will not start a spending frenzy on new stadiums before we are officially chosen!

There is an abudance of stadiums in Brazil, but most are from the 50s, 60s and 70s, and dont follow the strict FIFA rules.

Lets remember that these strict FIFA rules really started only in the 90s, after the disasters in Europe... like the 30 people that died in the Juventus-Liverpool match in Belgium and the 95 people that died in an England match... it was AFTER those incidents that Europe started really changing their stadiums in terms of safety and such.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
USA has more debt than Brazil. There is hardly starvation in Brazil. A large % of the population is actually fat.

Yes, many clubs are unable to pay their lowly paid professional footballers. But Brazil has about 2000 PROFESSIONAL football clubs. The 20 largest clubs in the country DO PAY their professional footballers and pay them well (most players in the first division earn over $30k per month and drive around in bmws and mercedes)

Whats the PROBLEM of investing in new football stadiums?? Brazil built several of them for the 1950 World Cup, including the largest and most modern stadiums in the world back then. And after the 1950 World Cup, several brazilian clubs built BIG modern private stadiums with their own money.

So next time, shut up instead of spewing your bullshit around!
Apologies for any offense caused - this was not my intent. The impression I have gained over the years is that there is considerable poverty in Brazil (shanty towns, etc.), and that one of the things which has made Brazilian football so good is the desperation with which people turn toward football in order to escape poverty. I have read various reports of clubs being unable to pay their players, although I admit I've never paid particularly close attention to which league those clubs/players were in - I'm delighted that the players are getting paid.

The difference between building new stadiums in the 50s, and now, is the cost. Stadiums could be relatively simple back then, whereas the demands and requirements now are such that an investment of over $2 billion in a dozen new stadiums would appear to be required... Can the World Cup bring in that kind of money to the Brazilian economy?

I hope they can get it all sorted out, I'm looking forward to the trip.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:22 AM   #7
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just as example, Corinthians spends $6 million PER MONTH in players and coaches salaries.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:25 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
just as example, Corinthians spends $6 million PER MONTH in players and coaches salaries.
I'm not doubting your word, but the maths seems a little scary... $6m per month equates to 30 players/coaches on $50k/week each.

Is this US$ ?

What kind of attendances do Corinthians get, and what are their attendances? I'm guessing TV rights in Brazil aren't being sold for the prices Euro right are... It's scary to think of a club paying that much on the kind of income they'll be earning.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjuk
Apologies for any offense caused - this was not my intent. The impression I have gained over the years is that there is considerable poverty in Brazil (shanty towns, etc.), and that one of the things which has made Brazilian football so good is the desperation with which people turn toward football in order to escape poverty.
there are actually MANY top brazilian players from middle class and even some of high-class.


Quote:
I have read various reports of clubs being unable to pay their players, although I admit I've never paid particularly close attention to which league those clubs/players were in - I'm delighted that the players are getting paid.
Sometimes salaries are delayed in some clubs. And everything is paid in the next month. Most of these clubs with financial problems are clubs that hired expensive players and have to pay dozens of thousands of dollars each money for them, and are not getting the results, so the revenues drop and they have difficulty paying the players. Its obvious the financial situation is not as good as in Europe. Still, its not so horrible. Some clubs are very well managed (São Paulo, Inter, Grêmio...) and pay salaries correctly always. (and high salaries).

But remember, they are CLUBS. Administration changes every x year with ELECTIONS from the associates. New presidents can be shitty and do bad managements.



Quote:
The difference between building new stadiums in the 50s, and now, is the cost. Stadiums could be relatively simple back then, whereas the demands and requirements now are such that an investment of over $2 billion in a dozen new stadiums would appear to be required
Do you have any info on how much a 200 thousand seat stadium cust to be built in the 50s? I am sure that if the value was corrected to nowaday values, it would still be pretty expensive.

There are a few stadiums in Brazil with crowd capacity over 100k. They need reforms, but that can be done. Other stadiums will be built by private companies. Brazil has a GDP PPP of 1,7 trillion dollars. I am sure it can spare at least 1 billion to a World Cup, since its an event that returns money to the country, if not immediately, in the long run.


Quote:
... Can the World Cup bring in that kind of money to the Brazilian economy?
Maybe not, but it doesnt matter. The world cup is the perfect excuse to do everything that was postponed for a long time, as the modernization of the brazilian stadiums, that would need to be done one time or another, and mainly, building of new infrastructure, specially hotels, roads and SUBWAY.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjuk
I'm not doubting your word, but the maths seems a little scary... $6m per month equates to 30 players/coaches on $50k/week each.

Is this US$ ?

What kind of attendances do Corinthians get, and what are their attendances? I'm guessing TV rights in Brazil aren't being sold for the prices Euro right are... It's scary to think of a club paying that much on the kind of income they'll be earning.
Not US$. Its R$. To get the US$ value, divide by two. But the value of EVERYTHING in Brazil is cheaper exactly because of the devaluated currency. So if a player makes R$ 30k per month, considers that the same as doing about US$20-25k per month in US.

There is also "premium" that clubs pay for specific winnings. Like... Internacional paid R$ 50k for each player for winning the Libertadores Cup (not counting the normal salaries)

Thats the correct math. But Corinthians is the club with the most inflated salaries in the country. It has a partnership with MSI, the sports marketing company, which right now is planning on buying West Ham from England.

Its worth remembering that brazilian clubs do not spend much BUYING players. And they get a lot of profit from SELLING players.

And Brazil is the country that produces more world class players in the world. Every year there are excellent players that the brazilian clubs can sell to Europe for $$$. Santos has over R$ 80 million in cash in their pockets for the selling of Robinho to Real Madrid and Diego to Porto.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 05:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
Not US$. Its R$. To get the US$ value, divide by two.
No man, all totally cool now that I understand the currency. $25k per week seems very plausible.

I hope Brazil can get the stadiums up and running, and like I said before, I'm looking forward to the Brazil trip in 8 years - as Germany was a blast and Brazil is the true home of football (I'm English, but it's hard to argue with World Cup history!).

It'd also be nice if the organisers could have a game or two played down in Uruguay as well (in terms of history).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
Do you have any info on how much a 200 thousand seat stadium cust to be built in the 50s? I am sure that if the value was corrected to nowaday values, it would still be pretty expensive.
No figures, but I'm guessing that building standards in the 50s didn't match standards now - that labour costs were lower (even taking inflation into account) - that the lack of seats and safety requirements, etc., would have reduced costs, and that land-prices would have been lower at the time.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 06:41 AM   #12
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^we dont need to build stadiums with closed glass roofs that slide or grass pitchs that go outside the stadium, etc.

The money spent on Korea/Japan and Germany was so high because they spent much more than needed, not on good stadiums, but on ultra hi-tech state of art stadiums.



right now, this is the most modern stadium in Brazil, located at Curitiba. It still lacks on of the sides to be finished tough.









project of reformation of Beira Rio stadium (private stadium belonging to Internacional), for the 2014 World Cup



right now:













Corinthians already has a project for a very modern FIFA standart stadium for 60 thousand people.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 08:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
^we dont need to build stadiums with closed glass roofs that slide or grass pitchs that go outside the stadium, etc.

The money spent on Korea/Japan and Germany was so high because they spent much more than needed, not on good stadiums, but on ultra hi-tech state of art stadiums.
True.




I assume the 4th side will be completed by 2014... That will look pretty good. Are there planning problems with buildings/businesses next to that part of the stadium? Do compulsary purchase orders exist in Brazil?

Also, second picture - don't appear to be any seats there - I assume the stadiums are standing, which FIFA doesn't like... Maybe the addition of seats to some of the larger stadia in Brazil will be enough to placate FIFA.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 02:19 PM   #14
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Brazilian stadiums have places with seats and places with stands (actually, there are STANDS and STANDS... like, England itself had stands where you standed up the entire game and you couldnt seat... then there are stands which have higher steps where you can sit).

Many stadiums are ALREADY being turned on seats only stadiums. Beira Rio and Maracanã are two of these.

But no, thats not enough. There is minium height between the steps where the seats are, minimum distance between seats, etc. Some of these older stadiums have steps that do not conform to the regulation (since there was no regulation when they were built!)
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 08:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjuk
I assume the 4th side will be completed by 2014... That will look pretty good. Are there planning problems with buildings/businesses next to that part of the stadium? Do compulsary purchase orders exist in Brazil?

Also, second picture - don't appear to be any seats there - I assume the stadiums are standing, which FIFA doesn't like... Maybe the addition of seats to some of the larger stadia in Brazil will be enough to placate FIFA.
Stadionwelt has updated pictures showing seats, and you can see the unfinished side too.

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwel...yocera&id=2321
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 01:21 AM   #16
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If Brazil have to build a dozen new stadiums by 2014 i cant see them hosting it.
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 03:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Its AlL gUUd
If Brazil have to build a dozen new stadiums by 2014 i cant see them hosting it.
And why not?

They won't have to build a dozen by 2014 and I'm sure if they did they would. Do all the stadiums in England/UK/whatever meet FIFA standards?

If Brazil is chosen they will do an awesome job no worse than any other host nation in the past.
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 03:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
^we dont need to build stadiums with closed glass roofs that slide or grass pitchs that go outside the stadium, etc.

The money spent on Korea/Japan and Germany was so high because they spent much more than needed, not on good stadiums, but on ultra hi-tech state of art stadiums.



right now, this is the most modern stadium in Brazil, located at Curitiba. It still lacks on of the sides to be finished tough.









project of reformation of Beira Rio stadium (private stadium belonging to Internacional), for the 2014 World Cup



right now:













Corinthians already has a project for a very modern FIFA standart stadium for 60 thousand people.

me gustaron mucho el estadio que se ubica en curitiva
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 07:21 AM   #19
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How come Brazil has so many oval stadiums?

As far as I know they don't play any another sports other than football in these stadiums, so why are the stands so far away from the pitch?

Back to the topic in hand, The Kyocera stadium is going to need some modifications before it is approved by FIFA. Firstly it needs new seats with backs to them. Secondly the safety access, if there is an emergency in the stand the fans have to have access to the pitch as somewhere to escape. Currently fans would be stuck as there is a big whole at the bottom of the stand, as seen below.



See the Emirates Stadium pitch access.



Thirdly, media facilities need to be huge and that includes a large area around the stadium for the all the trucks that the media companies bring when they cover a game. A reason why Highbury and Stamford Bridge haven't hosted International fixtures.

There doesn't appear to be much room around the stadium.

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Last edited by Sparks; September 23rd, 2006 at 07:37 AM.
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 07:27 AM   #20
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I don't know if these Latin types can be trusted when it comes to building stadiums!! Too many siestas and not enough hard graft! They don't like hard work...you know the types...workshy layabouts, more interested in dancing and listening to music than putting in a hard days work.
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