daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 23rd, 2013, 10:49 AM   #201
outage
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Beograd
Posts: 37
Likes (Received): 13

Tell me on thing.
How long succedors of KTM-5 will be produced? Till end of the world?
KTM-5

KTM-8


KTM-19

It is almost the same what you showed - Old and outdated construction.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
outage no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 23rd, 2013, 11:41 AM   #202
AlekseyVT
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moscow City
Posts: 8,283
Likes (Received): 7094

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
Tell me on thing.
How long succedors of KTM-5 will be produced? Till end of the world?
KTM-5

KTM-8


KTM-19

It is almost the same what you showed - Old and outdated construction.
KTM-5 and KTM-8 is not in production an anymore. The production of KTM-19 was ceased in December 2012. About last model - I'm agreed that it's outdaded construction, but I regularly rode at this tramcar, and I had no experienced any problem with it.

Here you can see new and previous model - KTM-23 and KTM-19.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
June 22, 2013. The beginning of the passenger operation of the new 71-623-02 tramcar №5606 at the Greater Cherkizovskaya Street, tram route №13:

Guaglione
__________________

geometarkv, Highcliff liked this post
AlekseyVT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 11:55 AM   #203
AlekseyVT
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moscow City
Posts: 8,283
Likes (Received): 7094

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
AlexeyVT, please stop your political off-topic. I am Russian and I prefer Bombardier, too, but I am asking you to stop calling Pesa trams "cheap and second-class". At least they are much better than all tramcars designed and made in Russia.

Pseudo-patriotism is not here to stay.
If you prefer Bombardier, why you don't disagree with last news? Of course, I perfectly realize that both Bombardier and PESA are better than Russian-made tramcars. But if we have opportunities, we must to buy better production with solid reputation. Our Polish colleagues trying to prove that PESA produces better tramcars in the world. As I read in Polish article, it was declared as greatest success for Polish manufacturer (that proves that they never had experience with same number of orders in other countries).

I don't even speak that whole situation already became confusing. Firstly they gave that right to Alstom. But later some companies claimed that they didn't took part in the first tender. As result, second tender was won by Bombardier. It was widely declared about beginning of cooperation. And now - it's declared that Bombardier was been replaced by PESA (although nobody of Russian officials confirmed it). Nobody can understand - that was reason for such solution?

Don't you think that whole story with order smells very bad and can affect very much on our reputation as customers?
__________________

warden987, geometarkv, Highcliff liked this post
AlekseyVT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 01:05 PM   #204
AlekseyVT
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moscow City
Posts: 8,283
Likes (Received): 7094

Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos View Post
From this article you can read that the PESA tram in Kaliningrad was the first low-floor tram in the whole Russia, WTF? Only in my city 75 % are low-floor trams while buses 100%.
Where are you from?
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
AlekseyVT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 01:18 PM   #205
markfos
San Escobar
 
markfos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,498
Likes (Received): 4286

Gdańsk (Sopot to be exact), Poland.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
markfos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 01:24 PM   #206
petersgriff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,074
Likes (Received): 52814

Никто не возьмет на себя сложность перевести?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
Tell me on thing.
How long succedors of KTM-5 will be produced? Till end of the world?
KTM-5
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8-Mariupol.jpg
KTM-8
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...00-Luhansk.jpg

KTM-19
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...oscow_VDNH.jpg
It is almost the same what you showed - Old and outdated construction.
КТМ-5, 8 и 19 уже не производятся, как правильно сказали выше.
Морально устаревшие вагоны в 2000-е годы производили по одной простой причине - цена.
Даже сейчас 100% низкопольные трамваи покупает только Москва. Даже Петербург, Казань, Екатеринбург и другие крупные города покупают вагоны только с частично-пониженным уровнем пола.
Это связано не с бедностью этих городов а с состоянием мозгов чиновников. Они считают трамвай "морально устаревшим" видом транспорта и не вкладываются в его развитие. Все ждут, что федеральное правительство выделит миллиарды на строительство т.н. "тяжелого" советского метро (метро глубокого заложения).
К сожалению это проблема не в отсталости технологий, а в заплесневелости мозгов городских чиновников.
petersgriff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 02:11 PM   #207
markfos
San Escobar
 
markfos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,498
Likes (Received): 4286

I must agree with AlekseyVT, new Bombardier trams look spectacular, look at these beauties in Kraków.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=195
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
markfos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 03:15 PM   #208
ComboD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 24
Likes (Received): 27

There’s design for beauty, and then there is design for functionality. Which solution offers the driver more comfort, better view? The front of Pesa Swing seems to be optimized for conditions where tram and car lanes often intersect. Minor collision, only damage on the tram is a scratch on the massive bumper. Bumper can be easily replaced.
ComboD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 05:50 PM   #209
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,203
Likes (Received): 101990

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
If you prefer Bombardier, why you don't disagree with last news? Of course, I perfectly realize that both Bombardier and PESA are better than Russian-made tramcars. But if we have opportunities, we must to buy better production with solid reputation. Our Polish colleagues trying to prove that PESA produces better tramcars in the world. As I read in Polish article, it was declared as greatest success for Polish manufacturer (that proves that they never had experience with same number of orders in other countries).

I don't even speak that whole situation already became confusing. Firstly they gave that right to Alstom. But later some companies claimed that they didn't took part in the first tender. As result, second tender was won by Bombardier. It was widely declared about beginning of cooperation. And now - it's declared that Bombardier was been replaced by PESA (although nobody of Russian officials confirmed it). Nobody can understand - that was reason for such solution?

Don't you think that whole story with order smells very bad and can affect very much on our reputation as customers?
Read my previous post carefully. The point is not that I diasgree or agree with the news. The point is that I'm against your misleading judgments that Pesa trams are not from a developed country or whatever. You can blame those responsible for the orders but nor the citizens of Poland here at the forum, when you talk about Polish trams as "good enough for provincial cities like Kaliningrad".

Our reputation as customers won't suffer since the tram will have to be produced in Russia. But Our reputation as citizens of a developed country that respects other cultures and peoples must suffer from your announcements above. That's what I am against.
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库


AlexisMD, Highcliff, forumaniac liked this post
_Night City Dream_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 05:52 PM   #210
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,203
Likes (Received): 101990

Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos View Post
I must agree with AlekseyVT, new Bombardier trams look spectacular, look at these beauties in Kraków.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=195
All major tram manufacturers can do any look any customer would want...
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库


Highcliff, forumaniac liked this post
_Night City Dream_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 07:39 PM   #211
petersgriff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,074
Likes (Received): 52814


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=195

But it not 100% low-floor. Moscow wants only 100%.

Isn't a secret that Moscow wanted only Alstom trams, matter is that Alstom owning 25%-actions of Russian company "Transmashholding". Alstom even showed the tram in Moscow at beginning 2012.
But auction was won by Uraltransmash(corporation Uralvagonzavod)/Bombardier. And now we wait information from russian mass media that there are changes and there will be tram from Uraltransmash/PESA.

But it is very strange because in april Uraltransmash and Bombardier together were present on Hannover Messe and presented design of new tram for Moscow.

BTW, PESA was the participant in auction on 20 new trams for Petersburg in 2013-2014. But won UKVZ-company with his KTM-31:

@Dissident
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
petersgriff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 08:06 PM   #212
markfos
San Escobar
 
markfos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,498
Likes (Received): 4286

Too bad, PESA Swing is much more advanced tram and its 100% low-floor, KTM-31 is outdated construction.
markfos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 11:16 PM   #213
AlekseyVT
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moscow City
Posts: 8,283
Likes (Received): 7094

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Read my previous post carefully. The point is not that I diasgree or agree with the news. The point is that I'm against your misleading judgments that Pesa trams are not from a developed country or whatever.
The point is that PESA tramcars has less experience of the operation at the world market comparing with other bidders. I hope you will not deny this fact. When you want to buy new technics, it's better to buy it from the manufacturer with more successful history - isn't it?

If you visit threads about Sofia and Baku Metros, you can find that many Bulgarian and Azeri forumers also disappointed that their city authorities plans to buy Russian Metro trains, not Metro trains which produced in Western Europe, Asia and North America. I'm sured that Polish forumers would be also disappointed if Warsaw authorities decided to buy Rusich trains instead of Siemens Inspiro.

Also, don't need to forget that it will be not just buying of new technics, but also exchange of technologies for future local manufacturing in Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
You can blame those responsible for the orders but nor the citizens of Poland here at the forum, when you talk about Polish trams as "good enough for provincial cities like Kaliningrad".
Yes, I sure that Polish trams are good enough for provincial cities like Kaliningrad. So, what's wrong with it? Due to its geographic location, Kaliningrad Region have a lot of contacts with Polish neighbors. That's why I was not surprised to this deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Our reputation as customers won't suffer since the tram will have to be produced in Russia. But Our reputation as citizens of a developed country that respects other cultures and peoples must suffer from your announcements above. That's what I am against.
So, respects to technics that produced in country is equal to respects to national culture and people for you? You can find that many Polish people are not respect Russian technics and prefer to buy technics of EU states. Does it mean that they don't respect Russian national culture and Russian people as well?
__________________

geometarkv liked this post

Last edited by AlekseyVT; June 23rd, 2013 at 11:22 PM.
AlekseyVT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #214
outage
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Beograd
Posts: 37
Likes (Received): 13

Who wants to buy Volga or Moskvich? People would buy any technology from Russia If it had been modern - not ancient.

In Poland there is a lot of MAZ buses, some LAZes and Bogdans and a lot of Gazelas. So you sentences are not true.

You have to realize that even in Poland we have better and newer trams. I was in Moscow cuple of times and I find its surface transport as totally unusable. All trams, trolleys and buses are totally unreliable - you can not even expect how long you will wait for tram and how long your journey would take. Trolleybuses are total wrecks with demolished and dirty interiors - In Czech, Poland and Hungary even in last of province vehicles looks better. Trams are ancient, not comfortable and of course not reliable.
So don't say that PESA is not good enough for Moscow. It is far away from your low level of service.
outage no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #215
AlekseyVT
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moscow City
Posts: 8,283
Likes (Received): 7094

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
You have to realize that even in Poland we have better and newer trams. I was in Moscow cuple of times and I find its surface transport as totally unusable.
How I see, Polish forumers are tended to talk BS about the Moscow urban transport in order to show superiority of own tramcars?

Relax, dude. Specially for you, I can repeat in tenth time - I don't compare Polish tramcars with Russian ones. I claim that there are exist better tramcars which are more in demand worldwide, not only in two or three EU countries. I like your patriotism, but I hope you will not claim that PESA tramcars are best tramcars in the world. In Ukrainian thread, one guy also claimed that Bogdan will be top world manufacturer in the near future.

Now, point by point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
All trams, trolleys and buses are totally unreliable - you can not even expect how long you will wait for tram and how long your journey would take.
It's general problem connected with dense Moscow traffic rather than problem of rolling stock. The buying of new rolling stock itself can not solve this problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
Trams are ancient, not comfortable and of course not reliable.
So don't say that PESA is not good enough for Moscow. It is far away from your low level of service.
What means "not reliable"? How many tramcars were out of service during your trip?

About ancient tramcars - as it was written, Moscow tramcars carries 5% of urban passenger traffic comparing with 56% in Metro (how many Polish cities has Metro systems, by the way?). That's why city authorities don't gave a lot of attention to renovation of tram rolling stock till recent times. Even in Poland, where replacing of tram rolling stock was started few years ago, you can find a lot of ancient tramcars even comparing with Moscow ones (Tatra T3s and KTM-19s).

For example, it's Gdansk.

http://transphoto.ru/show.php?t=1&cid=240

Konstal 105Na, Konstal 105NaD, Konstal 105Nch - 54 of 143 tramcars (37.8%)


Kaliningradskiy PADONAK


Prosek


Prosek

Duewag N8C-NF - it was purchased just few years ago (modified tramcars from Dortmund, constructed in early 1980s) - 45 of 143 tramcars (31.5%)


Karol95


Karol95


Karol95
AlekseyVT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 01:25 AM   #216
AlekseyVT
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moscow City
Posts: 8,283
Likes (Received): 7094

In Polish capital, there are still 544 Konstal tramcars (of 760, 71.6%) comparing with 186 new PESA tramcars. I can't understand - why these Konstal tramcars are much newer and more comfortable than Moscow ones?

http://transphoto.ru/show.php?t=1&cid=71

Don't get my wrong. I'm glad that you did a lot of work for renovation of tramlines and replacing of rolling stock. In Russia, there is much worser situation with condition of tram systems. But nowadays, there are many countries with better condition of rolling stock and better operation of tram network. Their experience and technologies can be more useful and effective for further development of Russian urban transport.


Jacek M.


Аксенов Дмитрий


Karol95


Аксенов Дмитрий
AlekseyVT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 01:37 AM   #217
ComboD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 24
Likes (Received): 27

Let’s wait and see what PESA offers Moscow before debating superiority. There’s always the matter of how much the customer is willing to pay for delivery. If the customer is low on cash, you may have to adjust the offer accordingly, leaving the top of the range product out it.
AlekseyVT would prefer an established supplier as he believes that involves less risk. There is some truth to that. Although with PESA you’re not dealing with a start-up company. If PESA trams perform well in Poland, they will perform well in Russia. PESA does seem to take quality very seriously. Though again, premium quality carries a premium price tag.
And why did Bombardier pull out? Russia is a very difficult place to do business, everyone knows that. So don’t take anything for granted.
__________________

_Night City Dream_ liked this post
ComboD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 02:03 AM   #218
AlekseyVT
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Moscow City
Posts: 8,283
Likes (Received): 7094

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComboD View Post
Let’s wait and see what PESA offers Moscow before debating superiority. There’s always the matter of how much the customer is willing to pay for delivery. If the customer is low on cash, you may have to adjust the offer accordingly, leaving the top of the range product out it.
According to conditions of contract signed with Bombardier, the cost of realization should be 8.46 billion rubles (~ 260 mln. USD).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComboD View Post
And why did Bombardier pull out? Russia is a very difficult place to do business, everyone knows that. So don’t take anything for granted.
According to rumours, Bombardier had problems with manufacturing of swivel bogies for 100% low-floor tramcars (unlike PESA). But it's strange - if this problem was known in advance, why authorities signed contract with them?
AlekseyVT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 02:15 AM   #219
Darhet
Warsaw patriot
 
Darhet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Warsaw, Warszawa,Варшава,Varsovie
Posts: 4,048
Likes (Received): 1190

Quote:
In Polish capital, there are still 544 Konstal tramcars (of 760, 71.6%) comparing with 186 new PESA tramcars. I can't understand - why these Konstal tramcars are much newer and more comfortable than Moscow ones?
totally wrong
These are old photos. Advertising on trams are prohibited.
I work in the company Tramwaje Warszawskie.All trams from the 70s and 80swill be withdrawn.Warsaw has:

Trams built by Konstal

105Na, 105Nb, 105Ne, 105Nf i 105Nm
obsolete with old DC motor
number375:




105Ng, 105N1k, 105N2k, 105Nz i 105Nz
upgraded with new asynchronous motors
number 74:


105N2k/2000 Delfin:

deep modernization
62:


112N brzydkie kaczątko

1:
first tram with low floor :20%




116N/116Na Uboot
Low floor - 61%.
29:


Trams built by CEGIELSKI:

123N Cegielski
30:



Trams built by PESA:




120N
15:
First pesa, 4 asynchronous motors and 4 power inverters.
Low floor - 100%.



120Na Swing

186:




Pesa Duo
Six of the 45,
ordered 45
A two way tram


PESA Jazz
On order 45
__________________

AlekseyVT liked this post

Last edited by Darhet; June 24th, 2013 at 03:43 AM.
Darhet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 03:09 AM   #220
petersgriff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,074
Likes (Received): 52814

Guys, stop!
__________________

_Night City Dream_, Hellmut liked this post
petersgriff no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
moscow

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium