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Old June 29th, 2013, 01:02 PM   #261
AlekseyVT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
Please remember that you started to complain in this tone:
"Peeesa - why not Bombardier, Poland is backward... why we did not buy Bombardier... etc".
Because it was widely declared that future tramcars will be made in cooperation with Bombardier (according to result of last year's tender). That's why it's logical that there appeared similar questions.

As for "backward Poland" - it was correctly mentioned that PESA production is presented on the world market at a much smaller scale. I think it's logical thing in business that companies with solid reputation are more welcomed for large international deals than newcomers. I hope you will not deny it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
About blackouts and break in services. How can I prove? I have some photos but how can I take photo of not arriving tram so that is not all.
Nobody will deny that the operation of Moscow tramcars is not regular. As it was correctly mentioned, it's a common thing that operation at tramline can be very slow in conditions of dense road traffic (if tramline is not separated from road lanes). Also, car accidents at tramlines can stop operation of tramcars for much time (but even in this case, delays for two or more hours are extremely rare).

But you wrote what you also saw "lack of voltage" and "broken pantographs" during your short trip in Moscow. With all respect, it's very hardly to believe in all such things "in one place at the same time". Such problems are extremely rare in Moscow, and its probability is close to zero. That leaves two options - you are either very "lucky man" or simply liar.

P.S. As I can see, almost all your posts at SSC were wrote in this thread, and you specially registrated for that. This leads to some thoughts...

Last edited by AlekseyVT; June 29th, 2013 at 01:26 PM.
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Old June 29th, 2013, 08:36 PM   #262
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Well, if Moscow decided to buy Polish Pesa trams, its weird they chose Twist trams instead of Swing, which is obviously the better tramcar for the big city like Moscow.
How is it obvious? They are both available in different lenghts, and are both 30-something meters long, and can both be had with the same track width and body width. So where's the difference?
Not to mention that the tram we see in the render looks different than other Twist's, so there really isn't a "model" to talk about, as they both can be configured differently. A Twist can be larger than a Swing, and the other way around. The model names probably only refer to the way their bogies are mated with the body, nothing else. The Swing has hanging bodies, the Twist has not completely hanging bodies, but all bodies solidly lean on bogies.

The one for Moscow is 4 meters shorter than the Swing models that are running around, but it is also one meter wider. It is a specially made model for Moscow. It has almost the same nominal capacity as the Swing with 5 modules, just 17 passengers short.

But since the tram in Moscow only has a low number of passengers, and the people there use it differently than in other European cities, it could very well be exactly what they need. I think they know that better than any of you guys who live in Poland and have never lived in Moscow, and don't manage their public transport system.
I mean, they aren't building one from nothing, so that your theorethisizing about how many people live in that city would be of any relevance. They already have a tram system and they know what their needs are, and they made their tender requirements accordingly, they also already have trains, and these trains are a lot smaller and are still enough to do their job, so I think they will do fine, even with the Twist which has 17 passengers less than the Swing.

Here are their current trams, now look at their capacity and how they are used (mostly in single cab role), and think again if the Twist is not enough for what Moscow thinks they need from a tram.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/71-608
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/71-619

Seriously, you poles on this website are really something else. Here you have a moment where an industrial company from your country grabbed a large order in Moscow (over the large, world-famous, competitors), and there could be a lot more business to be made with Moscow in the future (license production, more orders = more money, more exposure, more references, "proven", more orders from somewhere else), and what do you guys do?
You could be glad that they picked a Polish company, and maybe use that moment to lay some of your animosities towards them to rest, or at least rethink them. Maybe even recognize that you are in fact not an enemy, not even a fly in their room, to them, as you always imagine you are. You could be happy about the success for the workers of your country, and everyone else who lives off their work. But instead you go jump at the tiny bone that you have found in this to use it to get into your familiar "We are smarter than those idiots in Moscow. We normal people here know a lot better what Moscow's public transport needs than the people who are running it! Everyone there is obviously an idiot!!" mode.

Edit:

And how come they ordered PESA, what happened to this?
http://themoscownews.com/business/20...189967238.html

I can't believe they are ordering Polish made products over Russian made products.
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Old June 29th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #263
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Actually, Moscow has a contract with Uraltransmash and Uraltransmash is ordering trams from PESA now. PESA is just a sort of a subcontractor.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 06:06 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos
Well, if Moscow decided to buy Polish Pesa trams, its weird they chose Twist trams instead of Swing, which is obviously the better tramcar for the big city like Moscow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
How is it obvious? They are both available in different lenghts, and are both 30-something meters long, and can both be had with the same track width and body width. So where's the difference?
Not to mention that the tram we see in the render looks different than other Twist's, so there really isn't a "model" to talk about, as they both can be configured differently. A Twist can be larger than a Swing, and the other way around. The model names probably only refer to the way their bogies are mated with the body, nothing else. The Swing has hanging bodies, the Twist has not completely hanging bodies, but all bodies solidly lean on bogies.
Moscow really wants 100% low-floor tram, but she wants also rotary bogie (I am not confident this name in english, polish - "wózka skrętny"). Here approaches only Twist, but not Swing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
Edit:

And how come they ordered PESA, what happened to this?
http://themoscownews.com/business/20...189967238.html

I can't believe they are ordering Polish made products over Russian made products.
1) Do not trust to media. In photo Bombardier FLEXITY Outlook for Austrian Linz.

2) De-iure Moscow bought trams from Uraltransmash. Uraltransmash really working with Bombardier and they must work together to develop a new tram for Moscow.
Probably they are experiencing any difficulties with development of rotary bogie and now they are attracted this Pesa-company. In Russian media there is information (official) that PESA joins in this project, but Uraltransmash and Bombardier will continue to work together.
Very complicated story.
Emphasize again - De-iure Moscow bought trams from Uraltransmash (not Bombardier or Pesa), it's the official contract.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by outage View Post
What about this project?
http://www.moscowlrt.ru/primary.html

It looks nice but It needs fleet with minimum 45meters long, average speed 30km/h and interval about 5 minutes.
Recently it was declared that lines of rapid tram (i.e. with full isolation of tracks) will not be built in Moscow. Instead of it, there will be built traditional tramlines.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 11:50 PM   #266
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I wonder why Skoda did not enter a tender for Moscow. Are there any Skoda trams in Moscow?

Skoda produced the first 100 % low floor tram in the world with articulating bogies and jacobs bogies between the segments (i.e. all the bogies rotate). It is really revolutionary design, one step ahead of the competition. It also had huge tender in Prague for 250 trams (I believe the biggest world contract).

Would you like this tram in Moscow?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_15_T
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Old July 1st, 2013, 12:08 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post

I wonder why Skoda did not enter a tender for Moscow. trams in Moscow?
I do not know...
But:
"RUSSIA: Czech rolling stock manufacturer Škoda Transportation and Kirovsky Zavod signed a memorandum of understanding on April 22 for each to invest US$20m in the creation of an equally-owned joint venture to produce trams, metro trains and double-deck EMUs for the Russian market in St Petersburg."
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...agreement.html

Or:
http://www.raillynews.com/2013/kirov...ectric-trains/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Are there any Skoda
No, only Tatra and VarioLF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Skoda produced the first 100 % low floor tram in the world with articulating bogies and jacobs bogies between the segments (i.e. all the bogies rotate). It is really revolutionary design, one step ahead of the competition. It also had huge tender in Prague for 250 trams (I believe the biggest world contract).

Would you like this tram in Moscow?

No-no-no, only in Petersburg
Škoda-Kirovsky ForCity Petersburg Tramcar...
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Old July 1st, 2013, 04:40 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Recently it was declared that lines of rapid tram (i.e. with full isolation of tracks) will not be built in Moscow. Instead of it, there will be built traditional tramlines.
So. Everything that is done would be in vain.
Like here:

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Old July 1st, 2013, 11:12 PM   #269
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Nope. AFAIK, Transport department wanted to say, that it won't build 100% grade separated tram lines, which makes perfect sense in most cases - European cities don't to tend to build them also. But that doesn't mean that lines would be 100% blended either - lines that are separated from parallel traffic, but have single-level crossings are totally fine and cost-effective.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 10:15 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Nope. AFAIK, Transport department wanted to say, that it won't build 100% grade separated tram lines, which makes perfect sense in most cases - European cities don't to tend to build them also. But that doesn't mean that lines would be 100% blended either - lines that are separated from parallel traffic, but have single-level crossings are totally fine and cost-effective.
The lines would not need to be separated if the Moscow's drivers did not drive on them in their cars. I guess that anything else than hard separation won't work in Moscow.

In the case of intersections there is no separation needed of course, just adjustment of the traffic lights for the PT priority.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:14 PM   #271
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Well, classic soviet Rapid Tram (like Kyiv or Kryvyi Rih) are traditionally 100% grade separated from anything and anywhere, just like metro, through it never was a strict requirement.
So if Moscow choose to do it not classic way, but more like modern European style way - it's totally ok
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:53 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Well, classic soviet Rapid Tram (like Kyiv or Kryvyi Rih) are traditionally 100% grade separated from anything and anywhere, just like metro, through it never was a strict requirement.
So if Moscow choose to do it not classic way, but more like modern European style way - it's totally ok
Whatever design they chose its ok, if it secures that PT is reliable, quick, on time, has absolute priority to the car traffic (certainly the tram traffic). If the road traffic hinders the PT (especially in the case of trams) it is a bad design and wasted money.

So tell me, will this design fulfill those conditions?
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 04:36 PM   #273
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Well, the article doesn't specify, what does "traditional" mean - there are a lot of 70s-80s lines, separated from parallel traffic, but with single-level intersections, so they can be regarded as traditional as well. Fully blended lines are typically from 60s-50s, if not pre-war.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 06:45 PM   #274
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Its just what @Outage wrote. If it will be like this: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=201

it is wasted investment.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 07:21 PM   #275
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Its just what @Outage wrote. If it will be like this: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=201

it is wasted investment.
Nope. Nobody claimed that it will be done in such way. It was only said that the future tramlines will not be 100%-isolated from road traffic. It's mean there will be no built additional overpasses or underground tunnels in order to avoid intersections with road lanes.

Of course, it was very predictable that our Polish friend decided that all tramlines will be built as it was done at the above-mentioned photo. But in reality there exists other ways for separation of tramlines. That's what was said by city authorities.


Александр Гришин


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Old July 4th, 2013, 12:47 AM   #276
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Yep, that's the way to do it. It would not even be a problem if the track were part of the road, if the drivers always gave priority to the trams, but I guess it is impossible to enforce. It could work only in short sections that would clear fast.

Are there special priority traffic lights for the trams?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #277
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Are there special priority traffic lights for the trams?
Nowadays there are no priority traffic lights for the trams in Moscow. However, this measure is seen as one of possible way for separation of tram operation from road traffic at future lines.

There is full text of article (sorry, I have no time for translation):

Quote:
Скоростного трамвая в Москве не будет

Линии будут прокладываться по «классической» технологии, но по ним пустят современные составы

Столичные власти намерены отказаться от строительства линий по стандартам скоростного трамвая, сообщили «Известиям» в пресс-службе департамента транспорта и развития дорожно-транспортной инфраструктуры. Такое решение были принято в связи с тем, что построить инфраструктуру для скоростного трамвая в условиях плотной городской застройки практически невозможно. Эксперты посчитали, что весомым аргументом могла стать дешевизна «классических» путей по сравнению со скоростными.

Как пояснили в пресс-службе, по существующим нормативам на всех перекрестках следования скоростного трамвая пришлось бы возвести эстакады или тоннели. В результате строительство было бы сопоставимо по стоимости с прокладкой метро, притом что работы будут выполняться за городской бюджет. Кроме того, по тем же нормативам остановки скоростного трамвая должны располагаться через каждые 1–2 тыс. м, что неудобно для пассажиров.

— Поэтому было принято решение строить новые линии по стандартам «классического» трамвая, преимущественно в наземном исполнении, с применением современных технологий и конструкций трамвайного пути, обеспечивающих высокий уровень шумо- и виброзащиты, — рассказал представитель департамента транспорта. — Остановки будут размещаться каждые 400–600 м.

Помимо этого, трамвайные линии будут максимально отделяться от остальной проезжей части, что, как рассчитывают в департаменте, позитивно скажется на скорости движения транспорта.

— Это можно сделать несколькими способами: поднять путь на уровень бордюра, поставить делиниаторы, провести сплошную линию разметки, запретить парковку автотранспорта вдоль путей, а также установить комплексы фото- и видеофиксации, которые будут следить за тем, чтобы автомобилисты не заезжали на трамвайные пути. Где-то можно будет переложить трамвайное полотно сбоку от дороги, — перечислили варианты в пресс-службе департамента.

Кроме того, планируется внедрить систему приоритетного проезда перекрестков, при которой автоматическая система управления дорожным движением включает зеленый свет трамваю, как только он приближается к перекрестку. При укладке путей по «классическим» стандартам также планируется использовать технологию, при которой резиновые элементы будут закладываться вдоль рельсов, это снизит уровень шума и вибрации. Аналогичного эффекта предполагается достичь, установив дополнительные ступени амортизации в ходовой части вагонов.


— Пускать по Ленинскому проспекту трамвай или нет, будет решено после реконструкции трассы. Но в любом случае это будет не скоростной трамвай, — подчеркнули в департаменте.

Эксперты назвали такое решение «разумным». По данным старшего научного сотрудника Центра экономики транспорта ВШЭ Екатерины Решетовой, 1 км скоростного трамвая обойдется в $15–35 млн, тогда как реконструкция участка аналогичной протяженности будет стоит $5 млн.

— Наибольший эффект по разделению автомобильного и трамвайного потоков дает трассировка путей по типу железнодорожных: рельсы выступают над поверхностью, а само полотно засажено газоном. Автомобили там могут проехать, но это очень неудобно, — сказала она.

В то же время эксперт общественной организации «Город и транспорт» Владимир Свириденков назвал существующие нормативы, на которые опираются столичные власти, «устаревшими и не гибкими».

— Согласно нормативам, линии скоростного трамвая должны быть полностью изолированы не только от остальных участников движения, но работать автономно от других трамвайных маршрутов. Но это все равно, что использовать разные автомобили для того, чтобы ездить по двору и по магистрали. К тому же полное обособление путей исключает возможность одноуровневых пешеходных пересечений, что негативно влияет на комфортность передвижения пешеходов, а также снижает привлекательность такого транспорта, — пояснил он.

По мнению Свириденкова, вместо этого целесообразно комбинировать участки с ускоренным движением и отрезки с частыми остановками, например, внутри жилых районов. Он отметил, что необходимо пересмотреть нормативы в сторону их гармонизации с европейскими: «Это как раз касается обязательной полной изоляции линий скоростного трамвая, а также, например, запрета прокладывать пути ближе 20 м от жилых зданий».

— В Москве очень мало возможностей обеспечить такой коридор, к тому же существуют прогрессивные технологии, обеспечивающие отсутствие шума и вибраций от трамвая. Это и новый подвижной состав, и современные конструкции путей. Например, недавно открытая трамвайная линия во Флоренции проходит в нескольких метрах от средневековых строений и зданий эпохи Возрождения. Там удалось добиться того, что трамваи ходят бесшумно и не наносят вреда архитектурным памятникам, — резюмировал эксперт.

Читайте далее: http://izvestia.ru/news/552463#ixzz2XT8mjDLF
Speaking in general, it's very difficult to discuss this project because we don't know all details. Such discussion is no more than set of our thoughts and desires. Let's will wait more detailed information.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #278
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Quote:
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Yep, that's the way to do it. It would not even be a problem if the track were part of the road, if the drivers always gave priority to the trams, but I guess it is impossible to enforce. It could work only in short sections that would clear fast.

Are there special priority traffic lights for the trams?
Well, there are lot of traffic cameras being installed right now, so I suppose it's possible to enforce tram separation.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 03:20 PM   #279
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Of course, it was very predictable that our Polish friend decided that all tramlines will be built as it was done at the above-mentioned photo. But in reality there exists other ways for separation of tramlines. That's what was said by city authorities.



Александр Гришин
I saw it. My photo was taken about 1 kilometer from this Sokolniki. But in Russia separated tracks are not a problem for drivers. Like here:




Ok. You will separate part of tram route but in the end there is a crossing and what we can see there?
Tram traffic jam:


We have to separate whole tramline and give priority on crossings in this case but I think in Moscow it is mission impossible.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #280
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I saw it. My photo was taken about 1 kilometer from this Sokolniki. But in Russia separated tracks are not a problem for drivers. Like here:

I'm totally agree what this picture is typical for Russia. But at least, as you can see, this donkey in the car can't create so much problems for tram operation like all these cars at the right part. The percentage of these violators is not so high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
Ok. You will separate part of tram route but in the end there is a crossing and what we can see there?
Tram traffic jam:


We have to separate whole tramline and give priority on crossings in this case but I think in Moscow it is mission impossible.
I guess it's not due to crossing, but due to car trash at the tramlines (because road lanes are empty). When I write "crossing" I mean +-shaped intersection.
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