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Old October 7th, 2013, 03:19 PM   #321
petersgriff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre50 View Post
Do you mean that a new contract for additional tramways could be awarded differently from the contract awarded to Bombardier last year ?
I don't know.
Most likely it will be one more contract in addition to contract from UVZ(Pesa/Bombardier).
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Old October 7th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by petersgriff View Post
No, it's soviet (latvian) technology.

Our technologies is:


You love soviet technology - still producing Ziu clones, RVZ clones (even on prestige routes from Moscow to Airports) and KTM clones

In Serbia rail is damaged by war and lack of money.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 11:34 PM   #323
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Don't bother guys. This is a troll who probably is trying to start a political discussion or smth. Please don't pollute this thread.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 12:40 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Even in Russia, it doesn't look so crappy due to lack of necessary maintenance.



Only number of residents who officially registered in Moscow (not including residents of numerous suburbs) in 1.5 times higher than whole population of Serbia. It's silly to compare Moscow with provincial European towns in such countries like Poland or Serbia.
You're damn right, in any Polish provincial town people wouldn't be allowed to travel on a train coupling, not mentioning Polish capital.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 12:47 AM   #325
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You're damn right, in any Polish provincial town people wouldn't be allowed to travel on a train coupling, not mentioning Polish capital.
Are there exist passengers at the trains in Polish provincial towns?
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Old October 8th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #326
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Here's polish railway network with stations: http://www.plk-sa.pl/fileadmin/PDF/m..._HC_WWW_07.pdf
Regional railways in Poland after the EU accession are undergoing gradual revival.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #327
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This is polish railway network with stations: http://www.plk-sa.pl/fileadmin/PDF/m..._HC_WWW_07.pdf
What numbers of daily passenger traffic in the trains between Warsaw and its suburbs?
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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:22 AM   #328
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Guys, what’s this contest whose infrastructure is in least bad shape? Serbia, Russia, Poland, all suffered greatly from the communist mismanagement and neglect, and keep suffering even today. When the Bombardiers and Alstoms of this world were building their dominance and expanding in the world, people in those countries were forced to watch as everything around them was slowly falling apart. That’s why I’m happy when a company like PESA can come on top of Alstom or Bombardier, because it proves that, as certain president would put it, yes we can. Think about it and stop the infighting.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:32 AM   #329
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What numbers of daily passenger traffic in the trains between Warsaw and its suburbs?
We have a few operators.
Here's a monthly ridership of Koleje Mazowieckie in years 2010 and 2011: http://www.mazowieckie.com.pl/g2/ory...32a98399de.pdf
In 2011 it was 4600 k to 4800 k in all months besides summer holidays.
For the second operator, SKM in period 01-10.2011 ridership was at the level of around 20% of KM according to this data: http://utk.gov.pl/download.php?s=1&id=2826, which gives ~950 k per month.
EDIT And for the third operator WKD it was about 13%/600 k monthy in period 01-10.2011.
Together it was ~6200 k people per month in year 2011.
It grows every year.

But more important issue is, that in Poland train with people on the coupling wouldn't be allowed to move. That's the main difference between Poland and Russia.
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Last edited by Petr; October 8th, 2013 at 02:15 AM.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:05 AM   #330
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But more important issue is, that in Poland train with people on the coupling wouldn't be allowed to move.
Do you mean it wouldn't be allowed because this is technically impossible or because of service workers would prohibit it?

As you can see, service workers could hardly to do something in this situation. Even if they would notice these people, it would be necessary to stop this train and to waste time and forces in order to remove them from train. As a result, this delay would be much bigger and situation with overcrowding would be much worser.

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That's the main difference between Poland and Russia.
The main difference that passenger traffic in Russia is much higher than Polish ones. The population of Moscow agglomeration in 2.5 times less than whole population of Poland. The annual passenger traffic of Moscow Railway is about 600 million passengers (or about 1.5 million passengers per day), and it greatly growing every year (on 20-30%). That's why such rare and unusual incidents can lead to big problem for transportation of people. But you, guys, will always try to represent such unusual cases as ordinary day for Russian passengers, isn't it?
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Last edited by AlekseyVT; October 8th, 2013 at 02:24 AM.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:29 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Do you mean it wouldn't be allowed because this is technically impossible or because of service workers would prohibit it?

As you can see, service workers could hardly to do something in this situation. Even if they would notice these people, it would be necessary to stop this train and to waste time and forces in order to remove them from train. As a result, this delay would be much bigger and situation with overcrowding would be much worser.
Workers would stop this people, otherwise if something had happened to them, they would had lost their jobs and had ended up in jail eventually.
Quote:
The main difference that passenger traffic in Russia is much higher than Polish ones. The population of Moscow agglomeration in 2.5 times less than whole population of Poland. That's why such rare and unusual incidents can lead to big problem for transportation of people. But you, guys, will always try to represent such unusual cases as ordinary day for Russian passengers, isn't it.
Traffic jams and crowds during Warsaw busy hours are terrible. Sometimes I have to pass one tram or metro train in the morning. First metro line and tram lines were partly closed during summer holidays because of the construction of the second metro line. The same case was with the suburban rails on the diametric rail route due to renovation works. Some trains were moved to long distance rails, some were suspended and I didn't see anything like that. It wouldn't be possible because employees would be scarred about their jobs.
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Last edited by Petr; October 8th, 2013 at 02:42 AM.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 07:56 AM   #332
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You love soviet technology - still producing Ziu clones, RVZ clones (even on prestige routes from Moscow to Airports) and KTM clones

In Serbia rail is damaged by war and lack of money.
Em, you realise that abovementioned train are build by Russian-Swiss partnership?
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Old October 8th, 2013, 09:49 AM   #333
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Workers would stop this people, otherwise if something had happened to them, they would had lost their jobs and had ended up in jail eventually.
I disagree. How many people works at ordinary railway platform in Russia? I think no more than 10. How can they control and have deal with such crowd? I can repeat again - in such situation, bigger delays can lead to the similar overcrowding at other routes (not only at the route Moscow-Khimki).

Honestly, I don't know who must take responsibility in the case of accidents with such passengers. But, in my opinion, these people are not kids and they were must to realize that such trips are illegal and very risky. That's why they should to take responsibility for their illegal actions. If something serious will happen with them during such trips, they must blame only themselves. As I wrote, it's better for me to wait some hours or to use alternative kind of transport (bus routes) in order to avoid such extremal riding.

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Traffic jams and crowds during Warsaw busy hours are terrible. Sometimes I have to pass one tram or metro train in the morning. First metro line and tram lines were partly closed during summer holidays because of the construction of the second metro line. The same case was with the suburban rails on the diametric rail route due to renovation works. Some trains were moved to long distance rails, some were suspended and I didn't see anything like that. It wouldn't be possible because employees would be scarred about their jobs.
That's what I talking about. As I wrote, Moscow is one of the largest megapolices in the world (and largest in Europe) while Warsaw is quite provincial city according to the world standards (not speaking about other Polish cities). In provincial cities, you can to cancel some trains and routes without serious effects for passengers. In world megapolices, any delay can lead to the such overcrowding in the trains. You couldn't see it in Poland because this city is less-scaled comparing with Moscow.

As I already wrote, such case attracted so much attention in Russian mass-media and Internet because it's very unusual to see such situation, even in Moscow. Although problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow, but such extreme riding can be caused only by something unusual.

Last edited by AlekseyVT; October 8th, 2013 at 09:55 AM.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 11:40 AM   #334
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In Poland it's not difficult to control people. It's enough if train operator says he won't move train from the station, if people won't get of the copling
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Old October 8th, 2013, 11:45 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
That's what I talking about. As I wrote, Moscow is one of the largest megapolices in the world (and largest in Europe) while Warsaw is quite provincial city according to the world standards (not speaking about other Polish cities). In provincial cities, you can to cancel some trains and routes without serious effects for passengers. In world megapolices, any delay can lead to the such overcrowding in the trains. You couldn't see it in Poland because this city is less-scaled comparing with Moscow.

As I already wrote, such case attracted so much attention in Russian mass-media and Internet because it's very unusual to see such situation, even in Moscow. Although problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow, but such extreme riding can be caused only by something unusual.
Normal day in Moscow at Baumanska station. It is very hard to get into station building.


Normal day in Moscow - impossible to drive anywhere.


In Russia you are living in a myth that every your problem is caused by that Russia is big, Moscow is big and so on. I was in Shanghai which is bigger than Moscow and there were no such traffic jams, no such crowd in metro, no people outside trains. I was also in Paris and did noticed such actions... but in Moscow everything connected to transport is disaster because You lack maintenance, don't care about law and rules and everything is sloppy.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #336
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In Poland it's not difficult to control people. It's enough if train operator says he won't move train from the station, if people won't get of the copling
Are you able to read at English?

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
I can repeat again - in such situation, bigger delays can lead to the similar overcrowding at other routes (not only at the route Moscow-Khimki).
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Old October 8th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #337
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It wouldn't take long because majority of the people would discipline those few undisciplined. You are the one who must understand, that in Poland no matter of the other condition train with people on the couplings wouldn't move.
Besides in Warsaw inconvenient renovations and construction works are planned for summer holidays and weekends.
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Last edited by Petr; October 8th, 2013 at 12:30 PM.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 12:27 PM   #338
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^ Don't expect from Russia the same standards that are in EU.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #339
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Normal day in Moscow at Baumanska station. It is very hard to get into station building.
Well, Baumanskaya is one of rare examples in Moscow Metro. Let me to inform that this station was opened in January 1944 (in conditions of wartime). At that moment, there was no such number of offices and university buildings as in our days. That's why passenger traffic at this station is higher than it was planned in 1940s.

The construction of second exit from this station would greatly help problem with organization of passenger flow. This idea discussed at least during last 25 years. Unfortunately, this year Moscow authorities decided to postpone this project in order to spent money for extension of Metro network. So, now I hope that future Third Interchange Contour will help to solve problem of overcrowding of eastern radius of the Line 3.

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In Russia you are living in a myth that every your problem is caused by that Russia is big, Moscow is big and so on. I was in Shanghai which is bigger than Moscow and there were no such traffic jams, no such crowd in metro, no people outside trains. I was also in Paris and did noticed such actions... but in Moscow everything connected to transport is disaster because You lack maintenance, don't care about law and rules and everything is sloppy.
The large population of Moscow is one of reasons for above-mentioned problems, and you can't ignore it. The other reason is high centralization of Moscow: majority of people are live at outskirts or suburbs and rides to work in the centre (historical core of city).

If you speak about roads - most of them were built in Soviet times when only few families could have personal cars. Soviet planners couldn't predict that number of cars in Moscow will greatly increase in 1990s and 2000s.

As I wrote - problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow. That's why new authorities spend a lot of money for construction of new Metro and railway lines, creation of lines for public transport, etc. Also, there exist plans for de-centralization of Moscow and creation of workplaces at the outskirts.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:04 PM   #340
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In Poland it's not difficult to control people. It's enough if train operator says he won't move train from the station, if people won't get of the copling
But c'mon, you perfectly understand what Alexey means and such example with people clingling outside is probably the only one occurence in the whole of Russia ( kids and hazard seekers who ride on roofs on purpose and then film it excluded). I checked out videos from youtube from Poland railways and the trains are almost always empty or near empty. Of course, under such circumstances you will never find it in Poland).
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