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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos View Post
^ Don't expect from Russia the same standards that are in EU.
The rail infrastructure in Russia is in a much better shape than in Poland.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:06 PM   #342
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AlekseyVT, stop communicating with these users. They don't want constructive discussion. Your arguments are not necessary to them, they don't understand it.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by warden987 View Post
The rail infrastructure in Russia is in a much better shape than in Poland.
I doubt since we invest bilions euros each year and all major routes are being renovated including rail stations.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warden987 View Post
But c'mon, you perfectly understand what Alexey means and such example with people clingling outside is probably the only one occurence in the whole of Russia ( kids and hazard seekers who ride on roofs on purpose and then film it excluded). I checked out videos from youtube from Poland railways and the trains are almost always empty or near empty. Of course, under such circumstances you will never find it in Poland).
In Poland railway stuff would never let that train go, if they had been aware of the people outside on the train.
I don't know, which videos have You watched, but in Warsaw agglomeration suburban trains, excluding summer holidays period, are overcrowded durig rush hours.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Well, Baumanskaya is one of rare examples in Moscow Metro.
Stop kidding me. I ve seen similar situation on many more subway stations.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
The large population of Moscow is one of reasons for above-mentioned problems, and you can't ignore it.
Why I did not encounter such problems in Shanghai or Paris? Too small cities
Don't feed me with your myths.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
The other reason is high centralization of Moscow: majority of people are live at outskirts or suburbs and rides to work in the centre (historical core of city).
I worked outside trolley linie B and suffered also.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
If you speak about roads - most of them were built in Soviet times when only few families could have personal cars. Soviet planners couldn't predict that number of cars in Moscow will greatly increase in 1990s and 2000s.
And that is why these roads have six lanes )) Nice joke.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
As I wrote - problem of overcrowding in public transport is actual for Moscow. That's why new authorities spend a lot of money for construction of new Metro and railway lines, creation of lines for public transport, etc. Also, there exist plans for de-centralization of Moscow and creation of workplaces at the outskirts.
But you cannot even build separated fast tram line - which is cheaper than metro and can fixes more problems. For example like route "Metro - Ilitscha - Novogireyevo". Because it is a part of your behaviour - buy expensive, huge and not economic things at all - thats why you prefer expensive Bombardier than Pesa stucking in trafic jams and going on damaged tracks.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by markfos View Post
I doubt since we invest bilions euros each year and all major routes are being renovated including rail stations.

As if in Russia everything is frozen in time.... Probably the railroad infrastructure is developping in Poland for the better ( the Euro 2012 was also an incentive for this), but yet 2-5 years ago Polish railways were a very sorry sight.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #347
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Depends where, as I said, all major routes are being renovated, the major investment is upgrading E65 route (for HST )from Gdańsk to Kraków via Warsaw. Poland bought 20 Pendolinos trains for this route and it will be in operational from the end of 2014.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #348
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Stop kidding me. I ve seen similar situation on many more subway stations.
There are only few Moscow Metro stations with bigger daily passenger traffic. However, almost all these stations were built with two vestibules and few entrances. That's why there are no such lines of passengers near entrance.

And yes, Moscow Metro is one of the busiest subway systems in the world. Its passenger traffic is almost the same like at Metros at major Asian megapolices - Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing and Shanghai. However, we don't need to hire special people (pushers) in order to push passengers into trains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_...n_attendant%29

So, in 2050, when there will be opened Metro in Belgrade and Warsaw Metro will consist at least of 5 lines, you will have possibility to lecture us about Metro operation.


Metro

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
Why I did not encounter such problems in Shanghai or Paris? Too small cities
Don't feed me with your myths.

I worked outside trolley linie B and suffered also.
Paris is smaller than in Moscow, it's not so centralized and it was almost totally rebuilt in 1870s. Unfortunately, I never was been in China. However, I read that there was similar large-scale renovation of city since 1990s. Don't forget that China has rapidly growing economy while Russians suffered from large-scale financial crisis just 15 years ago.

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
But you cannot even build separated fast tram line - which is cheaper than metro and can fixes more problems. For example like route "Metro - Ilitscha - Novogireyevo". Because it is a part of your behaviour - buy expensive, huge and not economic things at all - thats why you prefer expensive Bombardier than Pesa stucking in trafic jams and going on damaged tracks.
Tram will be never able to replace Metro. It can be major kind of transport in such provincial towns like Sopot or Gdansk, but not in Moscow. That's why there are no effective urban tram systems in such megapolices like London, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Are they undeveloped cities? If I not mistaken, Moscow is the largest world city that have extensive tram network.

Why need to spend much money on less-effective things? And, yes, this is part of your behaviour - to make priority on fast and more effective kinds of transport.

However, even with such large-scale programm of Metro construction, Moscow authorities are spend remaining money on buying of new modern rolling stock and renovation of existing tram infrastructure. However, the funding of Moscow Tram will never be PRIORITY task.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #349
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As if in Russia everything is frozen in time.... Probably the railroad infrastructure is developping in Poland for the better ( the Euro 2012 was also an incentive for this), but yet 2-5 years ago Polish railways were a very sorry sight.
Indeed decade ago Polish railways were in a terrible shape, completely neglected. But after our EU acces rails are gradually upgraded, and railway stock is modernized. Of course first modernized are main lines and main agglomerational networks. After 2 decades of negligence there's still huge work to do, but changes are already well visible in all big agglomerations. Polish rolling stock manufacturers, Pesa and Newag, have a bright future.
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So, in 2050, when there will be opened Metro in Belgrade and Warsaw Metro will consist at least of 5 lines, you will have possibility to lecture us about Metro operation.
Who is teaching You about metro opperation? And what does it have in common with Warsaw?
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Old October 8th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #350
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Boys, atop arguing like this, please.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 06:01 PM   #351
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Who is teaching You about metro opperation? And what does it have in common with Warsaw?
I just explained that priority in the development of public transport is determined by its size and population. In provincial towns, surface transport plays higher role than subway system. However, in large cities it can't be real alternative for Metro. That's why it not correct to compare organization and work of different kinds of transport in large and provincial cities. Different scales - different priorities.

Why I should to explain such simple things?
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Old October 8th, 2013, 09:02 PM   #352
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Warsaw doesn't belon to cities in which trams can fully substitute metro and commuter rail, so I don't see the point.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 10:57 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
So, in 2050, when there will be opened Metro in Belgrade and Warsaw Metro will consist at least of 5 lines, you will have possibility to lecture us about Metro operation.
But now Moscow transport govermenment can go to Warsaw to see what means fast tram on separated tracks.


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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Paris is smaller than in Moscow, it's not so centralized and it was almost totally rebuilt in 1870s.
According to wiki:
Paris aglomeration: 12 milions of people
Moscow: 11 milions of people
smaller ))
Please not that Paris has different administration division - which means that city Paris is something like centre only.

You forgot that Moscow was destroyed during second world war and after that socreal built a very wide streets "Prospects"

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Unfortunately, I never was been in China. However, I read that there was similar large-scale renovation of city since 1990s. Don't forget that China has rapidly growing economy while Russians suffered from large-scale financial crisis just 15 years ago.
You have always excuse for your mess. Too big, too poor, too centralized etc. Main problem is Moscow that you don't have any reliable public transport service over the ground like fast tram which.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Tram will be never able to replace Metro.
So that is the reason why Moscow is deep forest in transportation. You mean to replace and invent one thing for everything (metro). You don't need metro everywhere. There is a lot of directions that needs something cheaper than metro. Transport is a system where different tractions like buses, trolleys and trams and metro completes each other. Focusing on Metro is main reason of inefficiency of Moscow transit system.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
It can be major kind of transport in such provincial towns like Sopot or Gdansk, but not in Moscow. That's why there are no effective urban tram systems in such megapolices like London, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Are they undeveloped cities? If I not mistaken, Moscow is the largest world city that have extensive tram network.
But you trams have only disadvanges of normal trams. No advantages like capacity (for example 58 meters long Combino in Budapest), no advantages like easy accessible from street level (especially for disabled people and mothers with wheelchairs), nothing but old KTM with high floor, not separated damaged trams.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post

Why need to spend much money on less-effective things? And, yes, this is part of your behaviour - to make priority on fast and more effective kinds of transport.
That is the reason why Paris decided to build their tram network again. You are living in wild east and you don't even know how trams can operate. Your trams have nothing to do like systems in France or Germany or even Budapest. For example in Budapest there is 60 meters long combinos which is riding every 2 minutes. That means capacity of 12000 people per hour. For example Serie 81 in every 4 minutes means 16 000 persons per hour. Comparable? Yes. I think there is a lot of corridors in Moscow with demands of tram. If build metro costs 156 mln eur per kilometre and tram costs 1,8 milions of euro per kilometre. And instead one kilometer of metro you can build almost 80km of trams on separated tracks. Thats why Paris on suburbs builds trams:

For me reliable tram will be enough in Moscow. I everyday go to work from Sokolniki - Taganskaya and if tram 50 will be reliable I would never use metro.

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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
However, even with such large-scale programm of Metro construction, Moscow authorities are spend remaining money on buying of new modern rolling stock and renovation of existing tram infrastructure. However, the funding of Moscow Tram will never be PRIORITY task.
And that is the reason why you will be in traffic jams forever. You spend money for very expensive project (which is metro). Instead this you would build a hundreds of kilometers of fast trams which have similar capacity and will provide alternative for metro, trolleys and buses and of course cars.
You wouldn't afford to extend your metro lines to avoid total stuck in traffic jams. It is too expensive. Apply for visa to European Union and check it yourself.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:48 AM   #354
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Paris is a village in terms of transport and people traffic in comparison with Moscow. The capital of Russia is 20 times bigger than Paris, it is larger than greater Paris, and only trams with a capacity of 12K passengers is not a solution.

Please stop saying "wild east" or I reserve the right to complain about it.

I agree with you that tram must be given a certain priority in Moscow bit it shouldn't be the only one.

Don't forget as well the Russian climate and snowfalls that make tram lines sick.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #355
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But now Moscow transport govermenment can go to Warsaw to see what means fast tram on separated tracks.
I can repeat again - unlike Warsaw, we have 12 Metro lines, not 1 (and there will be more Metro lines in nearest future). Moscow has bigger area and larger population. There is no such necessary to build lines of fast tram as replacement for Metro.

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
According to wiki:
Paris aglomeration: 12 milions of people
Moscow: 11 milions of people
smaller ))
Please not that Paris has different administration division - which means that city Paris is something like centre only.
I can't understand why you decide to compare Paris agglomeration with city of Moscow. First of all, population of Moscow (within its current borders) is 12 million people, not 11 million. First of all, population of Moscow agglomeration is estimates in 15-16 mln. people. You can see at this video with overcrowded suburban train that many people who live in nearest city of Khimki (as well as in neighboring cities/towns) are coming in Moscow for work. Also, don't forget that many people who lives or work in Moscow don't have permanent registration and don't included into official statistics.

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
You forgot that Moscow was destroyed during second world war and after that socreal built a very wide streets "Prospects"
It's false. Moscow almost was not damaged as result of Nazi air raids (thanks to effective system of masking of buildings and anti-air defense). Of course, some houses were really destroyed (none of these houses had strategic purpose), but this scale is not comparable with level of destruction of such cities like Warsaw, Kiev, Dresden, Berlin, etc.

And yes - many magistral streets were reconstructed and widened since 1930s. However, there remained many narrow street in the centre of city.

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
You have always excuse for your mess. Too big, too poor, too centralized etc.
Well - if you want to improve problem situation, you should clearly understand reasons of this problem, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outage View Post
Main problem is Moscow that you don't have any reliable public transport service over the ground like fast tram which.

So that is the reason why Moscow is deep forest in transportation. You mean to replace and invent one thing for everything (metro). You don't need metro everywhere. There is a lot of directions that needs something cheaper than metro. Transport is a system where different tractions like buses, trolleys and trams and metro completes each other. Focusing on Metro is main reason of inefficiency of Moscow transit system.
Finally, I agree with you at some points

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
But you trams have only disadvanges of normal trams. No advantages like capacity (for example 58 meters long Combino in Budapest), no advantages like easy accessible from street level (especially for disabled people and mothers with wheelchairs), nothing but old KTM with high floor, not separated damaged trams.
That's right. That's why we have plans to replace current rolling stock with low-floor or partly-LW tramcars. Some tram stops were reconstructed for better accessibility.

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
That is the reason why Paris decided to build their tram network again. You are living in wild east and you don't even know how trams can operate.
I can repeat again - If I not mistaken, Moscow is the largest world city that have extensive tram network. You can find that many world megapolices that has longest and busiest Metro systems, refused from urban tram network many years ago.

Metro systems by annual passenger rides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_s...assenger_rides

Metro systems by length:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tems_by_length

You can notice that vast majority of these cities has no effective urban tram network - London, Mexico, New York, São Paulo, Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul, etc. Are they represent "Wild East" for you?

In contrast, Moscow authorities have plans for development of tram network - but only on secondary principle. That's why there will no such fast changes in Moscow than in not-large cities where surface transport plays significant role.

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
Your trams have nothing to do like systems in France or Germany or even Budapest. For example in Budapest there is 60 meters long combinos which is riding every 2 minutes. That means capacity of 12000 people per hour. For example Serie 81 in every 4 minutes means 16 000 persons per hour. Comparable? Yes. I think there is a lot of corridors in Moscow with demands of tram. If build metro costs 156 mln eur per kilometre and tram costs 1,8 milions of euro per kilometre. And instead one kilometer of metro you can build almost 80km of trams on separated tracks. Thats why Paris on suburbs builds trams:

For me reliable tram will be enough in Moscow. I everyday go to work from Sokolniki - Taganskaya and if tram 50 will be reliable I would never use metro.

And that is the reason why you will be in traffic jams forever. You spend money for very expensive project (which is metro). Instead this you would build a hundreds of kilometers of fast trams which have similar capacity and will provide alternative for metro, trolleys and buses and of course cars.
You wouldn't afford to extend your metro lines to avoid total stuck in traffic jams. It is too expensive. Apply for visa to European Union and check it yourself.
But despite of this, city authorities in Budapest, Prague, Warsaw and Sofia continuing to build Metro lines. It's clear that Metro have bigger potential for transportation. And even 10 km of Metro lines can be much more useful than 40 km of tramlines.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #356
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This summer Czech specialists presented interesting table during transport conference in Novosibirsk.

Prague Metro: 3 lines, length of Metro lines - 59.4 km, average speed - 35.65 km/h, annual ridership - 530.493 million.
Prague Tram: 33 lines, total route length - 539.8 km, average speed - 18.57 km/h, annual ridership - 312.898 million.

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Они по-нерусски докладывали.
Только чешский специалист по-русски говорил вот про это:

структура общественного транспорта Праги

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/knsx/view/575315/


http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/knsx/view/575311/

синяя линия D, ведущая на юг - метростроительные планы чешской столицы

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/knsx/view/575318/
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Old October 9th, 2013, 03:18 PM   #357
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Outage, you've mentioned shanghai above. Well, Shanghai goes definitely for metro which is more of Moscow type - large trains and large distances. Tram is now found only in Zhangjiang district of Pudong, only one line.

There will be one more line in Songjiang. It's almost 45 km from the downtown.

And please, don't compare Paris to Moscow, its ridiculous. I live in Moscow and I lived in Paris for a year and in total I've been there 15 times. They are not comparable.

Paris Suburbs are just villages while Moscow outskirts are often as dense as La Defense itself.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #358
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In my opinion the purpose of this thread is not to defend the Moscow transportation system. So we do not need to explain to our Polish and Serbian friends why this or that picture is hanging out on the internet. If they are so eager to share their belief that Moscow railway or metro is crappy compared to theirs - this is enough of a reason to leave their uninteresting posts in peace. If too much trolling is happening it is the responsibility of the moderator to show our friends the proper ways of conduct.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #359
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New York doesn’t have trams. I’m surprised that Moscow has got them. Maybe building a tram line is cheaper than a metro line, but trams are generally painfully slow. Trams have to slow down in curves and at intersections, stop at red lights. Tram is fine if you want a short ride. To traverse a big city in a tram will take you all the time you have and then some.
As for the length of the trams, Moscow probably doesn’t have the infrastructure, like long platforms, to accommodate long trams. And they probably can’t extend existing platforms either due to space limitations. Could some Moscow resident confirm this?
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Old October 10th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #360
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Actually all stops already accept at least 30 m long trams, and further extending platforms (to reasonable length like 45-50 m, at least) isn't a problem on most routes.
What really drag tram down - years of neglect under misconception of tram being an outdated transport, that should be dismantled in a favor of extra traffic lane, and painfully slow boarding via first door only turnstile (even in 30 m long articulated trams...), resulting in timetables with hell a lot of padding (well, the latter are sadly true about all surface transit in Moscow).

Also, you must understand, that soviet-style subway are really fast due to fact it's designed with rather long distances between stations, but the cost of such speed - it's useless for a reasonable share of people if there is no surface transit to get people to/from metro. You should think about the Moscow Metro as analogue of NY express lines, and of Moscow tram* - like an analogue of all-stop NY services.

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*well, not just tram, and not every tram route... Trunk surface routes would be more correct analogue.
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